Posted on 04/26/2015 1:05:20 PM PDT by RnMomof7
The Catholic cult demands "submission of will and intellect". That alone should be a red flag to any rational human being.
So the magisterium statements are the equivalent to scripture ?
“So the magisterium statements are the equivalent to scripture ?”
Where do you see that in my comment?
“Unfortunately if you respond to something from a specific person you are “making it personal.” Both sides are limited to broad statements.”
That’s untrue on two counts:
1) Almost always only one side is said to be “making it personal”.
2) There is at least one example of a “broad statement” somehow, inexplicably, being turned into a “making it personal” situation.
****Now, I don’t know whether that is just your idea, or if it’s Catholic teaching and doctrine.****
My words, chosen badly :o
________________________________
****What I do know of God’s Word, is that it’s from God and it’s not based on any human agency. God chose the ones involved, he totally superintended what they wrote so to be His Word and no one else’s, and thusly, he chose (as a consequence) what books are “His Word”.
****No one else chose those books of the Bible, except God, himself. The only thing Christians have done is to “recognize” which books God chose, but Christians had no part choosing what was in and what was out. God alone is the sole party in that.
****It is the height of arrogance that anything from man had a thing to do with God’s Word. No man on earth and no organization of men on earth has a thing to do with the Word of God.****
The Catholic Church does teach that Scripture and the teachings of the Church are all from God as you say; I used a sort of short-hand to describe the situation.
If you look at Matthew 16:17, you will see that Christ greets Simon’s words that Christ is the Messiah with the comment that this was knowledge, not from man, but from God in Heaven. So we believe that all the Church teaches comes from God in Heaven.
Then in Matthew 28, 18-19, Christ explains that God has granted Him all power or authority, and He instructs the Apostles to go and teach all nations. Notice that He did not say, Go and write a book… Instead, He told them to teach.
And what were the Apostles to teach? Looking at the contents of the New Testament, we see 4 short biographies of Christ, many letters written to address specific situations, and Revelation. The Bible was not written as a textbook; it does not contain all that Christ taught, as we can tell by the absence of information about what He taught during His 40 days in this world after His Resurrection. We can also see much of what the Apostles taught in the writings of the Early Church Fathers, which line up with Catholic teaching.
Scripture states that the “pillar and ground of truth” is the Church, *not* Scripture (1 Tim 3:15).
****Your post reads that the following is ‘Not true”....
****…..**As soon as a Roman Catholic argues from Scripture he denies the need for an infallible magisterium. Once he points to Rome apart from Scripture, he shows himself to be a blind follower of Rome in the face of Scripture. ** ****
The problem is that the statement you quoted inaccurately describes a situation as an either-or situation. Catholic teaching has as its basis Scripture, the Magisterium, and Tradition, which last is a restrictive term referring to those teachings and understandings which have always existed in the Catholic Church.
No Catholic teaching can contradict any one of those three. What happens wrt Scripture in the Catholic Church is that the passage is interpreted in the light of the perennial teaching of the Church by the Magisterium, which has the authority conferred on it by Christ and the protection from teaching error of the Holy Spirit.
What do the Protestants have? (I am not bashing, but asking these questions.) How is it that the Protestants have at least 5 explanations about baptism, from being totally necessary to being merely symbolic? From being conferred upon infants to limited to adults? From needing full immersion to needing only a bit poured over the head? Where did all these different ideas come from, and does it not make Protestants uncomfortable that there are all these different teachings?
John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
The Magisterium and Scripture work together
Seeing the magisterium has only defined a handful of scriptures, one must assume that Catholics think all the teachings they give are infallible
I think the main problem you have here is that you don’t understand how Catholic teaching works. You see a little bit here and a little bit there, and you compare that with how things work in your denomination and think Catholics are doing it wrong. Which is ok, except when you then criticize Catholics based on a misunderstanding.
For example, we can explain some things from Scripture and some things from Tradition (for example, as shown in ECF teaching) and some things from Magisterial teaching. There’s a **lot** of overlap, as there should be, but sometimes one is clearer than another.
Because we have more sources of information, I get the impression that you think we somehow denigrate Scripture. We don’t at all; we just see that not everything is in Scripture.
As an example, consider the history of the idea of the Trinity, which is not explicitly explained in the Bible. Someone completely unacquainted with any Christian ideas would not read the Bible and see the Trinity in there. Where did that idea come from?
Um, the Bible.
It most certainly is in there.
If it's not then it's nothing more than unscriptural speculation no Christian should be entertaining.
**Seeing the magisterium has only defined a handful of scriptures**
Not correct information
Don't tell the Protestants but it came from the first recorded Marian apparition. It is reported by St. Gregory of Nyssa (IIRC) of St. Gregory Thaumaturgus that Mary and the Apostle John appeared to him and explained the doctrine of the Trinity.
****Um, the Bible.
****It most certainly is in there.
****If it’s not then it’s nothing more than unscriptural speculation no Christian should be entertaining. ****
So.... where is it?
Prove it.
Link to the source that shows what they are.
For Moses said, 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER'; and, 'HE WHO CURSES FATHER OR MOTHER, LET HIM BE PUT TO DEATH.' But you say, 'If a man says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban"—' (that is, a gift to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."By blurring the line between the two jurisdictions, the Pharisees usurped God's authority and displaced it with their own. There is no problem with looking to secondary sources for beneficial information. But for those sources to have any authority, they absolutely must conform to divine revelation. And that was what had NOT happened with Corban. It had evolved from possibly a good intention, wanting to honor God with our resources. Who could find fault with that? Yet Jesus DID find fault with that, when it ran into conflict with the explicit divine command to care for one's parents.
(Mark 7:10-13) (NKJV)
This is just another distraction trying to add FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt), and adding nothing to the dialogue contained in the threads premise.
I wouldn't waste a lot of time on trolls!
Look! Squirrel! (pay no attention to the man behind the curtain TRUTH!)
Probably, the first recorded Marian apparition was to Saint Gregory the Wonder-Worker, Bishop of Neo Caeserea, who died in 270 A.D. The account of his vision is preserved by St. Gregory of Nyssa in his life of the Wonder-Worker:
... Once again [Gregory] was terrified and turned his face away, unable to bear its sight. The vision was especially amazing since the night was gloomy, for it resembled something like a light illuminated by another light. Since he could not look upon this spectacle, he heard from those who appeared to him speaking in detail about what he was seeking. Not only was he revered with regard to true knowledge of faith but recognized the names of each man who appeared when they called each other by their respective names. It is claimed that this vision of a female form told [Gregory] that the evangelist John was exhorted to manifest the mystery of truth to a young man, saying that she was chosen to be the mother of the Lord whom she cherished. He also said that this fitting vision had vanished again from his sight. He was immediately ordered to write down this divine revelation and later proclaim it in the church. In this way it became for others a divinely given legacy through which the people might repulse any evil of heresy. The words of that revelation are as follows:
One God, Father of the living Word (who consists of wisdom, power and who is the eternal pattern), perfect Begetter of who is perfect, Father of the Only Begotten Son.
One Lord alone from him who is alone, God from God, pattern and image of the divinity, mighty Word, wisdom which encompasses everything, true Son of true Father, immortal [Son] of the immortal [Father], and eternal [Son] of the eternal [Father]. One Holy Spirit whose life is from God and who was made manifest through the Son (as well as to men), perfect image of the perfect Son, living source of those who are alive, holy provider of sanctity in whom God the Father appeared who is above all and in all,
Perfect Trinity to whom belongs glory, eternity and kingship which can never change. (Thus the Trinity is not created, has anything else which claims to be first, nor is there anything which exists that can be introduced later. Similarly, the Son neither lacks the Father nor does the Spirit lack the Son; rather, the Trinity forever remains immutable and constant.)
Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
I'm not sure why people can't find those and many others.
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