Posted on 04/29/2017 8:02:13 AM PDT by NYer
Safe to say, after seeing some of the postings, even the enemy can quote scripture.
Thank the RCC for the OT/NT together.
“3. No record of an Apostle or church leader before 100 AD ever praying to Mary or a departed saint”
“Isn’t that more commonly called necromancy?”
Yes it does is.
1. Excuses and false justifications come forth
Yes, and since the Bible records men speaking to an animal and does nor forbid doing so with those in Heaven, then we may teach this practice as a doctrine.
2. We learn how little understanding and regard exists for inspired Scripture.
Like as the devil in Mt. 4, what Scripture actually teaches is not what such Caths are interested in, but only how things in it can be extrapolated to support their tradition.
This is true, and on such a basis all sorts of nonsense can be taught.
If Catholics or Orthodox want to have their own special traditions, relics, statuary, icons, prayers, songs, liturgies, etc., I really don't care. I'm not a member of their ecclesial community.
Since it is contrary to His word and offends God, we should care even if it does not directly affect us.
“Isn’t that more commonly called necromancy?”
Yes it does is.
I'm just not into necromancy. I was into it, in a previous life, but those days are gone forever. I will NEVER again be a necromancer.
I guess it would be necromancy if you don’t believe in everlasting life. I guess you think Christ’s blessed mother isn’t in heaven and alive.
Compare it with this list. How many of your church leaders were killed for their faith?
Saint Peter (c.67), traditionally martyred by crucifixion[3]
Pope Linus (Saint) (c.67-c.76)[4][5]
Pope Anacletus or Cletus (Saint) (c.79-c.92)[6][4]
Pope Clement I (Saint) (c.92-c.99), thrown into sea with anchor around his neck[4]
Pope Evaristus (c.99-c.108);[4][5] not listed in the Roman Martyrology
Pope Alexander I (Saint) (c.106-c.119);[4][5] recognition as the martyred Saint Alexander (feast day May 3) rescinded in 1960
Pope Sixtus I (Saint) (c.119-c.128)[4][5]
Pope Telesphorus (Saint) (c.128-c.138)[4][7]
Pope Hyginus (Saint) (c.138-c.142);[4] martyrdom dubious[8]
Pope Pius I (Saint) (c.142-c.154), martyred by the sword;[9] claim of martyrdom removed from the 1969 General Roman Calendar[10]
Pope Anicetus (Saint) (155-166), traditionally martyred.[4]
Pope Soter (Saint) (166-175), died a martyr [4]
Pope Eleuterus (Saint) (175-189), died a martyr [4]
Pope Victor I (Saint) 189-199, died a martyr [4]
Pope Calixtus I (Saint) (217-222), died a martyr [4]
Pope Urban I (Saint) 222-230, died a martyr [4]
Pope Pontian (Saint) 230-235, condemned to mines in Sardinia and died on island of Tavolara[4]
Pope Anterus (Saint) Elected 235-12-21, martyred at hands of Emperor Maximus [4]
Pope Fabian (Saint) Elected 236-1-10 and died a martyr 250-1-20 during persecution by Decius[4]
Pope Cornelius (Saint) Elected March 251 and died a martyr June 253.[4]
Pope Lucius I (Saint) Elected 253-6-25 and martyred 254-3-5.[4]
Pope Stephen I (Saint) Elected 254-5-12 and martyred 257-8-2.[4][1]
Pope Sixtus II (Saint) Elected 257-8-30 and martyred 258-8-6.[4]
Pope Dionysius (Saint) Elected 259-7-22 after year of persecutions and died 268-12-26, martyred [4]
Pope Felix I (Saint) Elected 269-1-5 and died 274-12-30, martyred [4]
Pope Eutychian (Saint) Elected 275-1-4 and martyred 283-12-7. [4]
Pope Caius (Saint) Elected 283-12-17 and martyred 296-4-22, but not at hands of his uncle, Diocletian [4]
Pope Marcellinus (Saint) Elected 296-6-30 and martyred 304-10-25 during persecution of Diocletian [4]
Pope Marcellus I (Saint) Elected 308-5-27 after 4-year vacancy and martyred 309-1-16.[4]
Pope Eusebius (Saint) Elected 309-4-18 and martyred in Sicily 309-8-17. [4][11]
Pope John I (Saint) , Elected August 13, 523, during the Ostrogothic occupation of the Italian peninsula. Was sent as an envoy by Ostrogoth king Theodoric to Constantinople. Upon return, Theodoric accused John I of conspiracy with the Byzantine empire. Imprisoned and starved to death on 18 May 526. [4]
Pope Martin I (Saint) Elected in 649. Died in exile 655-9-16
Murdered popes[edit]
John VIII (872–882): Allegedly poisoned and then clubbed to death[12]
Stephen VI (896–897): Strangled[13]
Leo V (903): Allegedly strangled[14]
John X (914–928): Allegedly smothered with pillow[15]
Benedict VI (973–974): Strangled[16]
John XIV (983–984): Either by starvation, ill-treatment or direct murder[17]
Clement II (1046–1047): Allegedly poisoned[18]
Celestine V (1294, died 1296): Allegedly murdered while in post-abdication captivity; allegations blame his successor, Pope Boniface VIII[19]
Boniface VIII (1294–1303): Allegedly (though unlikely) from the effects of ill-treatment one month before[20]
So you want us to believe the RCC is greater than GOD? Are you aware —from reading the Bible— what is the fate of those who take credit to themselves for the MIRACULOUS work that GOD DOES? ... My loving advice to you is, look it up, in your ‘Catholic Bible’.
Do you believe Jesus’s Mother will be descending with HIM, or do you believe she too will be raised incorruptible from her grave and that ‘we who are alive and remain’ ... ‘shall be transformed’ to join those dead who are raised incorruptible to meet the Lord in the air’? Read the Bible and think about what ignoring what GOD says in His Word means if it requires you to put traditions of men above God’s Word.
What a silly list! The Hindu believers can produce a much longer list for their religion. Is it (their faith in their religion) more valid?
Explain what is silly about someone dying for their faith. Enlighten me.
The OP was making a list of bad popes. Maybe I need to make a list of millionaire protestant pastors and ones who lived a scandal, Jimmy and Tammy, the westboro baptist church, various televangelists.
I don’t care what denomination you are, making light of people who were killed for preaching the Lord’s word is ridiculous.
There are bad in all of them, and good in all of them. I don’t need you to tell me to read the bible, I do quite well on my own. Have a nice day, I’ve already been to Church and home. Your intolerance to fellow Christians is not exactly following scripture either.
Being a martyr is silly, great attitude for a Christian.
Good grief!
The Holy Bible IS the inspired word of God. But it needed the faith community of the Church to the full Canon of the OT/NT together from the time of the early Church.
NO CHURCH, NO BIBLE.
Correction: to put together.
Are you identifying yourself as a fellow Christian? If so, by what authority do you claim such a title? Is it because you have been faithful to Catholic striving for salvation, maintaining fidelity to the sacraments of that religion's order?
Regardless of any answer I could supply, it remains that; the passage of NT scripture you had cited in post #61 does not in anyway falsify the statement -- which statement was;
You have not supplied Scripture that establishes prayer to anyone in Heaven ---other than God, Himself--- be demonstrated, or recommended.
If you truly expect further answers, from myself, to questions you pose, you simply first must provide acknowledgment that your own repeated assertion regarding the passage of scripture wherein Jesus spoke of "the rich man and Lazarus", was not speaking towards Abraham having AT THAT TIME been in Heaven --- even according to Catechism of the Catholic Church, at 633.
Here it is again, since you seemed to have either skipped over it, or else not understood the crucial tangible elements;
Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell" - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham's bosom": "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Saviour in Abraham's bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell." Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.
It could also be noted here that in the above, the passage you have been leaning upon was referred to as "the parable of the poor man Lazarus".
The setting of that parable, when Jesus himself was narrating and relating the story --was Sheol-- which is absolutely not Heaven. Thus, your own characterization of the passage --- that it establishes from scripture that prayers may be directed to anyone in Heaven, other than God Himself -- fails. Abraham was not considered to have been in Heaven at the time, place and setting of the parable. That Abraham may now be "in Heaven"(?) is neither here nor there, for in setting of that parable, Abraham was not being spoken of as if he then were in Heaven.
Again, the question I posed to you (that you italicized and repeated back to me) was something of an add-on to what I had written about and hoped to draw your attention to previously, and have been veritably forced to belabor.
Here again that "add-on" question, slightly reworded this time around;
Show from scripture where the passage you cited that included Jesus Christ's own mention of such place as "Abraham's bosum" ---should be interchangeably considered that he was talking about Heaven, instead of himself talking about what CCC 633 references as the abode of the dead, and an abode not to be confused with "Heaven".
No, you are wrong. I posted it in response to a post about corrupt popes, not as proof of anything else. I don’t have to prove my identity as a Christian to you.
In other words, the fact that there are sinners in any church is hardly a revelation. There are also thousands who died for it.
I don’t answer to you for anything. I don’t need your approval, so get lost.
The authority of Rome came later. But you know that.
I would assert that GOD used your institutional religion to bring forth HIS purposes, but that does not mean your particular religious institution is THE authority. We both know that GOD can and does use even corrupted beings to accomplish HIS purposes.
Chapter 2 On revelation
7. These books the Church holds to be sacred and canonical not because she subsequently approved them by her authority after they had been composed by unaided human skill, nor simply because they contain revelation without error, but because, being written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and were as such committed to the Church.
https://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/v1.htm
You are in disagreement with your church.
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