Posted on 01/10/2018 9:11:22 AM PST by Salvation
Let me repeat the following, since it is exactly the the type of “interpreting” required by trinitarians. And at the end of the post, I’ve added more explanation to a comment on this.
“No man hath seen God”..(God the Father and/or “God the Holy Ghost”)..” at any time; the only begotten Son,”...(God the Son)..”which is in the bosom of the Father,”..(God the Father)..”he”..(”God the Son”)..”hath declared him”..(God the Father).
Unfortunately, labeling it that way is declaring that part of God is not invisible, making John a liar.
That type of reasoning makes the first part of the verse require mental labeling to match a preconceived idea.
A trinitarian believes that God is both visible and invisible, defying the testimony of John. Who, before those words, had actually seen, heard, and handled the Word; which is the visible expression of the invisible God.
Man was made in the image of God, in that our invisible soul resides in a physical tabernacle. Sin polluted the tabernacle. The physical tabernacle speaks the words of the invisible soul. But when we have God in us, that means that we have eternal life in us. We then are sons of God.
To dwell with man, and express his will in the form of a man, God visited man in his own image. In the likeness of sinful flesh, but without sin.
God MADE the Son both Lord and Christ. He was MADE so much better than the angels. The Son inherited his name. Did God the Father die, and give an inheritance to the “separate and distinct” Son?.... No.
The Son of God inherited all power in heaven and in earth when all power in heaven and in earth was placed in him. The Father is IN Christ.
Isaiah 45? Where do the words spoken by the Son come from?....
“For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me commandment what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.” John 12:49,50
Therefore Isaiah 45 does not teach that the Son of God is also, separately and distinctly, God; only that he is the mouthpiece (the express image) of God.
**Learn the lesson from your journey into Calvinism. Following a French lawyer.**
John Calvin was a trinitarian, so you are not addressing the points I have given you to address by bringing him up.
**The Messiah gave Peter/Cephas the keys to the kingdom and promised the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church.**
While a Calvinist, I was never instructed to embrace the use of graven images in worship to God. I was never told to pray to anyone in heaven other than God. Peter also didn’t instruct us to do those things.
Three hundred years to nail down an official understanding on the Godhead is not a indication of good spiritual leadership.
**Who did the LORD God and His Spirit send ?**
Not “God the Son”.
“The LORD God and His Spirit” (notice the possessive? The Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father.)
**sent me**
The Son of God was sent from where?
“I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.” John 16:28
I have tried to get you to address Isaiah 42:1-8.
Verse 1: “Behold my servant” (notice the possessive), “whom I uphold” (whoever is talking is doing the upholding.), “mine elect” (possessive again), “IN whom my soul delighteth” (the Father is IN the Son, remember?), “I have put my spirit upon him”, (possessive again)....... Get the picture yet? (I would be interested in your opinion of Is. 42:1-7 compared with 45:11,12)
**Is Jesus the Holy One of Israel ?**
The Son is OF God. The firstborn of all creation. He was made so much better than the angels. By who?.... God,.... the Father. That is how the “One” is “Holy”. Jesus Christ is the image of the invisible God (Col. 1:15).
God the Father is a Spirit (John 4:23,24), and thus is invisible:
“Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.” Is. 45:15
**Is Jesus the Redeemer ?**
Who upheld the servant, so that he could do God’s work?
Who said that the Father was in him?
Also, without a resurrection, there would be no use for redemption (see 1Cor. 15:32)
“...Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father,..”. Rom. 6:4
Yeah, being a former trinitarian, I can see why Is. 45:1-7 is not a favorite passage for teaching three coequal, separate and distinct, persons of God.
And I can see why RCs don’t go around quoting verse 8; and completely avoid Is. 44:9-13.
Oh by the way, Peter and the apostles were instructed to baptize believers. Kinda hard to instruct children so young that they don’t know their right hand from their left. And water baptisms shown in the Bible were full immersion. (But, I guess that’s where the luxury of making new “traditions” comes in handy).
The apostles understood the “name” in Matt. 28:19. That’s why in the most detailed accounts, the name used, is Jesus: Acts 2:38; 8:16; 19:5.
In Acts 10:48 and 22:16, we read, “the name of the Lord”. Didn’t Peter say that “hath God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ”? (Acts 2:36)
My wife loves popcorn. I do too, but there needs to be a toothpick nearby. I never fail to get a hull stuck somewhere.
And who is the first and the last ?
**It seems to me from the responses that you denied that Jesus is the Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, the LORD, sent by the LORD and His Spirit as written Isaiah, similar to previously denying Jesus is God.**
I haven’t kept score, but I think that I respond to the passages that you present much more than vice verse. But I will go in more detail with Is. 48:16 and 17:
Is. 48:16 “Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.”
The Son is the firstborn of all creation. He is the “servant” (in Is.42). He is the Prophet like unto Moses:
“And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.” Deu. 18:17,18
Is. 48:17 shows him speaking the words of God,...just like the Prophet is supposed to:
“Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.”
Compare verse 17 with verse 6 in chapter 37:
“And Isaiah said unto them, Thus shall ye say unto your master, Thus saith the LORD, Be not afraid of the words that thou hast heard, wherewith the servants of the king of Assyria have blasphemed me.”
Of course, the BIG difference is that Isaiah was a prophet, but not the Son of God (the Prophet)
NOW, we will go back to Is. 48:16......
“Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: ....”
Remember the Prophet (the “servant”) speaks FOR God, and is doing so there, and is letting the listener know:
“.... and now the LORD God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.”
And then continues to speak for God in verse 17:
“Thus saith the LORD......”
Do you see the pattern?
eimi: I exist, I am Original Word: εἰμί Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: eimi Phonetic Spelling: (i-mee') Short Definition: I am, exist Definition: I am, exist.
**That portion of Isaiah describes the Messiah, Jesus, as confirmed in the Gospel of Matthew.**
So the Messiah is talking to others (vss 1-4), then himself (vs 5), then to himself (vss 6 and 7)??
**There is scripture that says the Father sends the Holy Spirit, and there is scripture that says the Son sends the Holy Spirit.**
The Son is the mouthpiece of God the Father, speaking whatsoever has been commanded to him (John 12:49).
**Who is the King of Israel ?
Who is his redeemer the LORD of hosts ?**
I asked you to label such portions to identify who you believe to be “God the Father”, “God the Son”, and “God the Holy Ghost”. But, it appears that your problem is preconceived ideas doing the interpreting for you. Assigning ownership must be done correctly:
“Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.” Is. 41:14
Whose redeemer?... Israel’s. There is not two persons talking to Israel under the singular “I”.
“But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.” Is. 43:1
Who is “I”? Which person(s) of God: 1st, 2nd, and/or 3rd?
“For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.” 43:3
Which person(s) of God is “I”?
“Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.” 44:6
Who is being redeemed in these verses? Israel. In 44:6, “his”, is Israel.
“Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my son’s, and concerning the work of my hands command yes me.” 45:10
“his”, is Israel. Israel’s “Maker” is “the LORD, the Holy One of Israel”.
“Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One,....” 49:7
Whose “Holy One”? Israel’s.
The Father is in the Son. That is what makes the Son both Lord and Christ.
The First and the Last is in the Son.
The Son is King of Israel because he is in the Father’s throne. And the Son of God “must reign till he hath put all enemies under his feet........, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” (from 1Cor. 15:25,28)
Who put all things under the Son’s feet?
God.
I repeat: the Son declared that the Father dwells in him. He is the express image of the INVISIBLE God. He speaks the words of the God that dwells in him.
As far as the garden arrest scene: that is not a Godhead lesson. The arresting party asks for Jesus of Nazareth. He simply says, “I am”.
When you are in the service waiting room at the car dealership, and the service person comes in asking for you by name, what do you reply?
Calvinists believe they are predestined to be saved. Our little church didn’t talk about it much. Probably because when some folks that slip into a sinful life, the unspoken thought was “maybe he wasn’t predestined after all”.
But Calvinists seem to be predestined to disobey Acts 2:38, and have clung to the coequal three distinct persons confusion.
So you don’t make a peep when someone calls your name?
As far as them falling to the ground: John 14:10
.....”the security of the believer in Christ”....
Is an absolute.
You can break your communion with God but not your spiritual union.....you are part of a living eternal organism called the body of Christ.
We know the believer lives under grace...and it’s Gods guarantee of HIS ability to bring to a conclusion what we cannot..... We were not saved by our works, so we don’t undo our salvation by works.
One cannot keep themselves saved, since we didn’t save ourselves in the first place, we remain saved by grace, by His power.
Salvation is a gift freely given apart from any human effort. It does not depend on our performance nor on a certain amount of obedience in having it be permanent in our life.
Christianity is the ONLY religion which does not require a merit system of salvation...and what separates it from all others.
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