Posted on 04/26/2018 4:27:22 PM PDT by Roman_War_Criminal
Ephesians 2:8-9 New International Version (NIV)
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
John 3:16 New International Version (NIV)
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 14:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
I don't see other conditionals in those passages.
You are confusing the Lords return for His people with the Lords return with His people to put an end to Armageddon and usher in the millennium. One is imminent without preceding signs the other is well laid out with giant flashing road signs...
“It is known to me that many Chinese Christians lost faith over their embrace of Darbyism during Mao’s purges.”
You are right. Corrie Ten Boom warned the western church of this exact thing:
http://www.endtimepilgrim.org/corrie.htm
She also went through horrific suffering under the NAZIs in WW2 for her families obedience to Christ, and she wanted to encourage believers not to lose heart when going through severe suffering. We should not be expecting the rapture to keep us from persecution or tribulation. Christ has rescued us from God’s wrath but not tribulation.
You can just throw yourself on the mercy of the court, so to speak, like this guy did.
Luke 18:9-14 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’
But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
(Excerpt) Read more at raptureready.com ...
But first, a word from our sponsors.
“You are confusing the Lords return for His people with the Lords return with His people to put an end to Armageddon and usher in the millennium. One is imminent without preceding signs the other is well laid out with giant flashing road signs...”
Well, that is exactly what I’ve always heard taught. And it sounds great. But the problem comes when you actually read the passages of the scripture on this topic and discover that they do not fit the pre-trib paradigm.
Yes, Christ will come for the Church and will separately return with His bride and set up His kingdom. Yes, there are two distinct events. In one, the angels gather the elect. In the other, angels gather the wicked and cast them out. In one, we meet Him in the air. In the other, we begin to reign with Him on the earth. But the pre-trib position improperly places His return for the Church at the beginning of Daniel’s seventieth week.
I challenge you to find Biblical support, or even support from early church patriarchs, for the pre-trib position. It is all anecdotal. It is not based on exegetical study of scripture. The patriarchs warned the church of the coming anti-christ. The scriptures also warn us, the church. The last generation of church age believers will face anti-christ. And it is important to be prepared and expecting this as part of the signs Christ foretold to alert us that His return will then become imminent. His return is not imminent until after the signs have occurred.
I am not trying to belittle, mock, or put down any one who holds the pre-trib view. I attend a church where this is the standard belief held. Almost every church I’ve ever attended held to this. But it is nonetheless incorrect. And the reason it is harmful and dangerous is because it sets the stage for what Christ also forewarned—namely that many of HIS FOLLOWERS would be offended, and turn away, and even betray other Christians.
Matthew 24:9-10
Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.
One of the things anti-christ will do is push his “mark”. At first it will probably be sold as a benefit, a life enhancement, a privilege. Then it will be required to buy and sell. Then those who refuse to take it will be executed. What are pre-tribbers going to think, and say, and do when all that they have been taught and believed about Christ’s return proves to be based on an erroneous, manmade doctrine?
Some will continue to trust and seek God anyway, and will persevere. But many will, exactly as Christ says, “be offended” and renounce their outward profession of faith. Some will remain faithful but their own family members, their own children, will turn against Christ and even betray their own parents. Christ already forewarned us.
Did you read the passages I cited?
2 Thessalonians 1:4-10
So that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
Read this passage carefully and tell me how it is possible for a pre-trib rapture to be reconciled with it. The Thessalonians were questioning if they were in the Day of the Lord and the rapture had failed to happen. Paul explains that the tribulation they are enduring is normative. He tells them that when Christ returns, their persecutors will be repaid with divine judgment but they will enter into rest. Is this the rapture? Of course it must be because this is when persecuted believers will receive rest. But how can the passage also describe His return as Christ bringing with Him angels who pour out fire on the earth? Does that sound anything remotely like a pre-trib rapture? No, it does not. And that’s because the pre-trib rapture is a manmade doctrine.
The Great Tribulation begins in the very middle of Daniel’s seventieth week, but it does not last until the end of it. Rather it is “cut short” by Christ’s return. When He comes, every eye will see Him. Israel will mourn and repent. 144,000 who have survived the genocide of anti-christ will be sealed and divinely protected. But the last-generation church, made up of believers from all nations, will be raptured out. And then the holy angels will begin pouring out fire on the earth just as fire reigned down on Sodom after the angels took Lot and his family out of it.
If you set aside all of the commentaries, books, and sermons proclaiming the pre-trib paradigm and just let the scripture speak for itself, you will see that this is the correct order of events.
reasonable people can disagree
Wrong. The commandment has two parts. Believing brings salvation, but that doesn't negate the second part, which is love.
"And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment." 1 John 3:23
Perfectly. If there were a “textbook answer” that’d be it. Now, your job will be to encourage others to hold fast, also.
I don’t get this. Why are you posting this thread here? I am a dispensationalist who believes in the pre-trib rapture. In fact I listened to an excellent hour long sermon about it early this morning.
However, I also believe in the exercise of prudence and judgement. I don’t believe that this thread, casting “pearls before swine,” with crazy posters saying there’s more Holy Spirit presence around today inspires confidence or lends credence to this pov.
“Christ has rescued us from God’s wrath but not tribulation.”
That cannot be overstated.
JUDGEMENT is redemptive in purpose, and you will not that the Seals and Trumpets are described as judgments.
WRATH is punitive, and there are seven bowls of it.
The last of the judgments — The Seventh Trumpet — is in Revelation 11:15. [Take special not of what happens in Rev. 11:19 & cross ref Rev. 16:18-21] There is some of what — for lack of a better term — I’ll call “sidebar” material in chapters 12 through to chapter 14, verse 13.
Then this:
“14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.”
16 Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.”
— Revelation 14:14-16
There is One Who is called “son of man” who comes with the clouds and is crowned: Jesus. And here He is to harvest His church; it is the ingathering of “the wheat.”
There follows a scene of victorious saints in glory in chapter 15 as preparation is made for the outpouring of God’s wrath.
The bowls of wrath are then poured out in Revelation 16.
“reasonable people can disagree”
Of course this is true. I don’t think our understanding of future events will be clear compared with hindsight, after all is said and done. These are not things that should divide the body of Christ.
But there is a pragmatic side to them. For example, the believer is expectantly waiting for Christ to return, and this results in a desire to be conducting our lives in a way that will please Him when He returns.
1 John 2:28
And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.
1 John 3:2-3
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
2 Timothy 4:8
Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.
Those with an improper view of Christ’s return or are not looking for His return are in danger of being misled in other ways:
1 Corinthians 16:22
If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. O Lord, come!
2 Timothy 2:18
Who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.
Mark 13:22-23
For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.
Matthew 24:48-51
But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Regarding our disagreement, I would be happy to be wrong and the rapture come before the hard times, but I do not see this in the Bible, only in the manmade explanations of Biblical prophecies. On the other hand, if I am right and you are wrong, there is a grave danger you and your family may encounter. I certainly would never advise anyone to take my word for it. Rather, I encourage you and others to continue to study. Be like the Bereans who searched the scriptures diligently to see if what they were being told was true.
If you (and I or others) do this, God will honor it and give us understanding to what is correct.
Those are excellent truths concerning the nature and means of Salvation.
I would ask you this:
If ONLY those particulars revolving around Salvation matter, why did Jesus EVER talk about ANYTHING else?
Nonetheless, He did talk about other matters.
Jesus spoke about many other things, and among them were his teachings concerning the time of the end, and how that coming time would be discerned from other times.
Why did Paul, Peter, James, and John speak and write about anything other than Salvation if nothing but Salvation matters?
Even a cursory glance through the epistles reveals copious teaching on many other topics aside from Salvation.
And there among all the rest we see Paul teaching eschatology to his principle congregations at Corinth and Thessaloniki.
Why would he do that if it didn’t matter?
How did it all get into the canon of Scripture if it doesn’t matter?
Manifestly, although not salvific, these other topics do matter, and we ought, therefore, at least read them with a desire to understand.
“WRATH is punitive, and there are seven bowls of it.”
They are specifically called God’s wrath:
Revelation 15:1
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
But filling up His wrath means they are not the whole outpouring of wrath but merely the completion of something that had already begun.
“There is some of what — for lack of a better term — I’ll call ‘sidebar’ material in chapters 12 through to chapter 14, verse 13.”
There is a lot of linear or chronological content in Revelation, but there are a number of things that overlap, backtrack, or otherwise are presented as a sort of interlude. For example, in 5:13 “every creature” everywhere is praising God and Jesus. Clearly this is not something that will happen until the very end, even after the millennial reign is over. Another example is how the mark of the beast is introduced in chapter 13, but the warning not to take the mark does not come until chapter 14, after an interlude in which the 144,000 appear on Mt. Zion with the Lamb.
“There is One Who is called ‘son of man’ who comes with the clouds and is crowned: Jesus. And here He is to harvest His church; it is the ingathering of ‘the wheat.’”
It is very interesting that there is no singular example of the rapture in Revelation presented in the way that it is presented in the Olivet discourse or as Paul described living saints being instantly changed. And obviously God did not overlook this, and our quandary does not take Him by surprise. For this reason, I think He intentionally did not make the order and sequence of events easily figured out.
Piecing together the answers requires a great deal of study of many passages. It is like a treasure hunt in which we must gather many clues along the way. And again for this reason, I try to be careful to not be too dogmatic about everything I think on this topic. I’ve got to be open to correction and to learn more.
“There follows a scene of victorious saints in glory in chapter 15 as preparation is made for the outpouring of God’s wrath.”
The wrath of God in Revelation is mentioned in 6:16-17, 11:18, 14:10 & 19, 15:1 & 7, 16:1 & 19, and 19:15. I believe that the 7 trumpet judgments are all part of His wrath. I believe the multitudes coming out of the great tribulation in chapter 7 represent the final generation of church age believers. It is the rapture from Heaven’s perspective.
I believe 6:16-17 describe how the people who hunted down Christians (as in verses 9-11) will react when they see Christ’s return. Most of these will have taken the mark of the beast, I think, and will therefore have no opportunity to be saved. But the remnant of Israel that survives the betrayal of anti-christ will experience national repentance.
Revelation 1:7
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
There will be two kinds of mourning when Christ returns. There will be the hopeless sorrow of a world who knows their fate is sealed. And there will be the sorrow of those who finally turn to Christ, realizing how wrong they have been.
And there will be 144,000 Jews who are divinely protected from the outpouring of wrath who remain here on earth. I believe their role will be as final witnesses to those who still may have not had a chance to hear the Gospel. Perhaps they will especially focus their ministry on Jews who have been scattered throughout the world and are part of the national repentance. These would be among the people, along with many Gentiles, who had not believed on Christ but had also not taken the mark of the beast.
Many of these things can be worked out by comparing the Olivet discourse in the synoptic Gospels with the events given in Revelation. We see a unique sequence of signs in the discourse which culminate in the return of Christ. And these align and match perfectly with the seven seals of Revelation. But Christ comes immediately after the sixth sign in the Olivet discourse. Yet in Revelation we see God’s wrath being poured out in the trumpet and bowl judgments AFTER the events described in the Olivet discourse.
In this way the rapture is like the judgments of Noah’s flood and the destruction of Sodom with fire. God first took His elect to safety, then His wrath fell. Likewise, in 2 Thessalonians 1, we see the rapture as an event which goes along with angels pouring out judgements of fire on the earth. Same is in 2 Peter 3:10. These match with the trumpet and bowl judgments which include numerous instances of fire reigning down on the earth. See 8:5 (even before the first trumpet is sounded), 8:7, 8:8, 8:10, and the 3 remaining trumpets all have smoke and fire involved.
There are 7 thunder judgments which are not disclosed. But the angel who reveals them has feet “like pillars of fire”. At least 2 of the 7 bowl judgements involve fire. These match Peter’s description of what follows the return of Christ during the Day of God in which the earth and the things in it will be burned up.
2 Peter 3:10-13
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-8
And to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in FLAMING FIRE TAKING VENGEANCE [emphasis added] on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
“WRATH is punitive, and there are seven bowls of it.”
They are specifically called God’s wrath:
Revelation 15:1
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
But filling up His wrath means they are not the whole outpouring of wrath but merely the completion of something that had already begun.
“There is some of what — for lack of a better term — I’ll call ‘sidebar’ material in chapters 12 through to chapter 14, verse 13.”
There is a lot of linear or chronological content in Revelation, but there are a number of things that overlap, backtrack, or otherwise are presented as a sort of interlude. For example, in 5:13 “every creature” everywhere is praising God and Jesus. Clearly this is not something that will happen until the very end, even after the millennial reign is over. Another example is how the mark of the beast is introduced in chapter 13, but the warning not to take the mark does not come until chapter 14, after an interlude in which the 144,000 appear on Mt. Zion with the Lamb.
“There is One Who is called ‘son of man’ who comes with the clouds and is crowned: Jesus. And here He is to harvest His church; it is the ingathering of ‘the wheat.’”
It is very interesting that there is no singular example of the rapture in Revelation presented in the way that it is presented in the Olivet discourse or as Paul described living saints being instantly changed. And obviously God did not overlook this, and our quandary does not take Him by surprise. For this reason, I think He intentionally did not make the order and sequence of events easily figured out.
Piecing together the answers requires a great deal of study of many passages. It is like a treasure hunt in which we must gather many clues along the way. And again for this reason, I try to be careful to not be too dogmatic about everything I think on this topic. I’ve got to be open to correction and to learn more.
“There follows a scene of victorious saints in glory in chapter 15 as preparation is made for the outpouring of God’s wrath.”
The wrath of God in Revelation is mentioned in 6:16-17, 11:18, 14:10 & 19, 15:1 & 7, 16:1 & 19, and 19:15. I believe that the 7 trumpet judgments are all part of His wrath. I believe the multitudes coming out of the great tribulation in chapter 7 represent the final generation of church age believers. It is the rapture from Heaven’s perspective.
I believe 6:16-17 describe how the people who hunted down Christians (as in verses 9-11) will react when they see Christ’s return. Most of these will have taken the mark of the beast, I think, and will therefore have no opportunity to be saved. But the remnant of Israel that survives the betrayal of anti-christ will experience national repentance.
Revelation 1:7
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
There will be two kinds of mourning when Christ returns. There will be the hopeless sorrow of a world who knows their fate is sealed. And there will be the sorrow of those who finally turn to Christ, realizing how wrong they have been.
And there will be 144,000 Jews who are divinely protected from the outpouring of wrath who remain here on earth. I believe their role will be as final witnesses to those who still may have not had a chance to hear the Gospel. Perhaps they will especially focus their ministry on Jews who have been scattered throughout the world and are part of the national repentance. These would be among the people, along with many Gentiles, who had not believed on Christ but had also not taken the mark of the beast.
Many of these things can be worked out by comparing the Olivet discourse in the synoptic Gospels with the events given in Revelation. We see a unique sequence of signs in the discourse which culminate in the return of Christ. And these align and match perfectly with the seven seals of Revelation. But Christ comes immediately after the sixth sign in the Olivet discourse. Yet in Revelation we see God’s wrath being poured out in the trumpet and bowl judgments AFTER the events described in the Olivet discourse.
In this way the rapture is like the judgments of Noah’s flood and the destruction of Sodom with fire. God first took His elect to safety, then His wrath fell. Likewise, in 2 Thessalonians 1, we see the rapture as an event which goes along with angels pouring out judgements of fire on the earth. Same is in 2 Peter 3:10. These match with the trumpet and bowl judgments which include numerous instances of fire reigning down on the earth. See 8:5 (even before the first trumpet is sounded), 8:7, 8:8, 8:10, and the 3 remaining trumpets all have smoke and fire involved.
There are 7 thunder judgments which are not disclosed. But the angel who reveals them has feet “like pillars of fire”. At least 2 of the 7 bowl judgements involve fire. These match Peter’s description of what follows the return of Christ during the Day of God in which the earth and the things in it will be burned up.
2 Peter 3:10-13
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-8
And to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in FLAMING FIRE TAKING VENGEANCE [emphasis added] on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Well said and true of me also.
LOL!! I didn’t even catch that.
Bad as it is, we ain't seen nothing yet....
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.