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Why stay Protestant?
Medium Corporation ^ | 01/22/18 | Matthew Schultz

Posted on 06/21/2018 9:48:25 PM PDT by boatbums

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To: metmom; boatbums

You’d think after being around for the 2000 yrs they claim they’d gotten around to providing a clear interpretation of the texts.


21 posted on 06/22/2018 5:20:53 AM PDT by ealgeone
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To: MayflowerMadam
True. But in all fairness, I recall when I was younger, in the ‘50s and ‘60s, the R.C. families I knew said their church forbade them from reading the Bible. (I don’t think it’s that way any more.)

That is my experience also, but sometimes I'd sneak our Catholic Bible out and try to read it anyways. But it never made any sense. I had NO CLUE where to even start. I probably started in Numbers for all I know.

Regardless, when I relate that expeirne3ce, I m told I'm lying, that the Catholic church never forbade the reading of Scripture. So be ready for someone to accuse you of that.

Interesting thing is, so many former Catholics recall being told that and we all came from different parts of the country and we all remember the same thing, that it takes it out of the realm of*You're lying* or *You misunderstood*.

22 posted on 06/22/2018 5:30:15 AM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith......)
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To: boatbums
Whenever I read Catholic apologists, I’m fascinated by the near-total absence of robust exegetical arguments.

LOL. When I read the Protestant apologetic against Catholicism, "robust exegesis" is not what I'm seeing. More like a robust disregard for either textual or cultural context, exhibited during a frantic search for prooftexts to rip out of context and use as weapons, while the texts that might support the Catholic view are simply swept under the carpet.

His "off the top of his head" reason number 3 means he doesn't understand the difference between "Pope Francis' off-the-cuff opinions" and the "teaching of the church".

Number 4 tells me he doesn't understand that the "post Vatican II ethos" has even less authority than "Pope Francis' off-the-cuff opinions". (The actual documents of Vatican II, IMO, clearly teach the same thing as Pius IX and other Popes before him: only invincible ignorance can excuse lack of Christian faith.)

Broadly Protestant notions of justification are clearly taught by the Bible.

Where does the Bible teach that justifying grace is only forensic and external, i.e., that justification means a change in how God views us, not also a change God works in us at exactly the same time?

23 posted on 06/22/2018 5:30:38 AM PDT by Campion
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To: ealgeone

It’s not like they haven’t had the time or resources.


24 posted on 06/22/2018 5:32:03 AM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith......)
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To: metmom
True...but you know and I know...once it's on paper, kinda hard to change your tune.

Though we have seen the denomination that claims to have never changed has indeed changed.

25 posted on 06/22/2018 5:33:43 AM PDT by ealgeone
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To: ealgeone; metmom
Sometimes I think that the USCCB is more anti-Catholic than you two are. :-0

Pope Leo XIII attached an indulgence to reading of the Gospels "by the faithful" in 1898. The church doesn't indulgence an act she finds objectionable or even unwise.

Here's the actual citation:

“An indulgence of 300 days for reading the Holy Gospels is granted to all the Faithful who read these Holy Scriptures for at least a quarter of an hour, with reverence due to the Divine Word and as spiritual reading…. A Plenary indulgence under the usual conditions is granted once a month for the daily reading.”  Pope Leo XIII. December, 1898, Preces et Pia Opera, 045. (Enchiridion Indulgentiarium, 694).

Pope Pius VII wrote to bishops in 1820:

... to encourage their people to read the Holy Scriptures; for nothing can be more useful, more consoling, and more animating, inasmuch as they serve to confirm the faith, support the hope, and influence the charity of the true Christian.

Lest you think this was something kept from American Catholics, the Third Council of Baltimore taught in 1884:

“It can hardly be necessary for us to remind you, beloved brethren, that the most highly valued treasure of every family library, and the most frequently and lovingly made use of, should be the Holy Scriptures.... We hope that no family can be found amongst us without a correct version of the Holy Scriptures.”
Many more such citations are here.
26 posted on 06/22/2018 5:42:16 AM PDT by Campion
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To: ealgeone
Though we have seen the denomination that claims to have never changed

That would be the Orthodox. The Catholic church has always claimed to be able to change things that are not defined dogma, and in particular to adapt prudential matters of governance -- how the faith is taught, not which faith is taught -- to different cultures, times, and places.

27 posted on 06/22/2018 5:44:35 AM PDT by Campion
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To: Campion
Sometimes I think that the USCCB is more anti-Catholic than you two are. :-0

I can only cite a Roman Catholic source.

I do appreciate the quotes you provided.

However, too many Roman Catholics on these threads, and other forums, have echoed the position that Roman Catholics were not actively encourage to read the texts on their own.

By this I mean private individual reading/study....not the limited Scripture a Roman Catholic hears at Mass.

28 posted on 06/22/2018 5:57:43 AM PDT by ealgeone
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To: Campion
That would be the Orthodox. The Catholic church has always claimed to be able to change things that are not defined dogma, and in particular to adapt prudential matters of governance -- how the faith is taught, not which faith is taught -- to different cultures, times, and places.

You're saying the meaning of the texts change from culture to culture?

I'd think John 3:16 would be universal across all cultures.

29 posted on 06/22/2018 5:59:11 AM PDT by ealgeone
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To: Elsie

A ‘worldly mindset’ caused divisions in Christianity, the Pope said.
DANG!
What has caused divisions in Catholicism??


Now, Now, lets give credit where it is due:

Luk 12:51 Do you think I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I have come to divide people against each other!

We have all heard the old joke, “there are two kinds of people in the world...………….”

What is the point Jesus is deviding on?

The answer to this is what we should be deciding on first. (note I said first) I have no doubt a few P will make it to heaven, and maybe even a few RC.

Division beyond the major point can lead to destruction or construction. But that does not mean we should avoid division, but maybe we should understand the math and check our work...……………………...


30 posted on 06/22/2018 6:11:00 AM PDT by PeterPrinciple (Thinking Caps are no longer being issued but there must be a warehouse full of them somewhere.)
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To: Campion

Amen to that.

Remember that over the last several years Catholics have been encouraged to read the Bible.


31 posted on 06/22/2018 6:11:23 AM PDT by Biggirl ("One Lord, one faith, one baptism" - Ephesians 4:5)
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To: metmom; ealgeone; boatbums
Hey MM, it’s been many decades, since I rather uncerimoniously dumped the Catholic Church, that I cannot remember for sure what the priests and nuns told us about reading scriptures. I don’t think I remember them telling us not to read it. They just told us to let a priest interpret it for us. Maybe these dudes can tell a bunch of third worlders, not to read the scriptures, but I was a super rebellious, independent minded, American catholic. Telling me I couldn’t read the Bible, is like putting a red cape in front of a bull. I just told them to take a hike, and got a Bible.
Now, I am heavy into YOPIOS, and I am my own pope. 😁 I imagine some might not like that. Such is life. I will still do my YOPIOS.
32 posted on 06/22/2018 6:12:03 AM PDT by Mark17 (Genesis chapter 1 verse 1. In the beginning GOD....And the rest, as they say, is HIS-story)
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To: YogicCowboy

Equally, I reject the premise, hidden or not, that any one theology is perfectly correct. We see through a glass darkly - all of us. For that reason, I am much more interested in the Bible than any theology.


Just a point of clarification. We should all be theologians, It would appear you are very much interested in Theology, but not worldly theology.


33 posted on 06/22/2018 6:15:47 AM PDT by PeterPrinciple (Thinking Caps are no longer being issued but there must be a warehouse full of them somewhere.)
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To: ealgeone

Even when at mass when the reading of scripture a GOOD THING because one is hearing the word of God.

Do not be negative about it.


34 posted on 06/22/2018 6:15:57 AM PDT by Biggirl ("One Lord, one faith, one baptism" - Ephesians 4:5)
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To: 21twelve

However, I do like some of their traditions,


And that may be the major point.

Most people going from P to RC will comment on traditions, music, emotional, visual things.

Most people going for RC to P with talk about truth and logic, and the Bible being the source of truth, not the church.


35 posted on 06/22/2018 6:18:47 AM PDT by PeterPrinciple (Thinking Caps are no longer being issued but there must be a warehouse full of them somewhere.)
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To: chuckles

What about the tribulation saints who became Christians and died martyrs?

They went to Heaven.


36 posted on 06/22/2018 6:31:29 AM PDT by Biggirl ("One Lord, one faith, one baptism" - Ephesians 4:5)
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To: Biggirl
Even when at mass when the reading of scripture a GOOD THING because one is hearing the word of God.

Is hearing the same as listening/understanding the Word?

37 posted on 06/22/2018 6:32:06 AM PDT by ealgeone
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To: 21twelve

. However, I do like some of their traditions,


Further thought. What does the Lord say about traditions. And this is not all he says for those that seek the truth (meaning, get your Bibles out folks):

(Matthew 15:3) Jesus replied, “And why do you, by your traditions, violate the direct commandments of God?

(Matthew 15:6) In this way, you say they don’t need to honor their parents. And so you cancel the word of God for the sake of your own tradition.

Mark 7:8) For you ignore God’s law and substitute your own tradition.”

(Mark 7:9) Then He said, “You skillfully sidestep God’s law in order to hold on to your own tradition.

(Mark 7:13) And so you cancel the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition. And this is only one example among many others.”

I don’t think Jesus is saying all traditions are bad. The problems with traditions are they change over time so much that they replace Gods word. The solution to that is to always go back to Gods word as the test of truth, not church or tradtions. And yes, P have the same problem, so what is the solution?


38 posted on 06/22/2018 6:32:18 AM PDT by PeterPrinciple (Thinking Caps are no longer being issued but there must be a warehouse full of them somewhere.)
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To: metmom; ealgeone; boatbums
And, another thing. Since I am into YOPIOS, I can offer my interpretation of 2nd Peter 1:20. I am amazed at how many people misinterpret this verse, possibly cuz they don’t read verse 21. Peter VERY MUCH wanted the people to understand and interpret (YOPIOS) The only thing Peter was saying, was that a group of guys didn’t sit down one day, and decide they would take it upon themselves, and write a bunch of scripture. That’s all he was saying. I believe that is the correct interpretation. 😁👍
39 posted on 06/22/2018 6:33:01 AM PDT by Mark17 (Genesis chapter 1 verse 1. In the beginning GOD....And the rest, as they say, is HIS-story)
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To: Campion
LOL. When I read the Protestant apologetic against Catholicism, "robust exegesis" is not what I'm seeing. More like a robust disregard for either textual or cultural context, exhibited during a frantic search for prooftexts to rip out of context and use as weapons, while the texts that might support the Catholic view are simply swept under the carpet.

I've not encountered on a regular basis the Roman Catholic who uses/understands the textual or cultural context of the New Testament.

Additionally, when I've shown passages in their proper context that RCs cite to justify their doctrines, that do not support their position, they are ignored.

It is the rare post where a Roman Catholic has demonstrated applying the passage in question in proper context and understanding the Greek behind the passage.

When I've shown how the ECFs contradict each other Roman Catholics ignore that.

I will cite the Immaculate Conception as one of examples when one of Roman Catholicism's own sources admit there is no direct or categorical Scriptural support for the doctrine nor is there unanimous consent among the ECFs on the dogma.....yet Roman Catholicism continues to double down on the dogma.

40 posted on 06/22/2018 6:40:45 AM PDT by ealgeone
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