What Is the Greatest of All Protestant “Heresies”?

Ligonier ^ | 10/3/18 | Sinclair Ferguson

[Elsie]

 I just subscribe to the doctrines followed by the first autonomous immersionist New Testament assemblies.

 

 

As I was walking across a bridge one day; I saw a man standing outside the railing, about to jump off.

 

So I ran over and said, "Stop! Don't do it!"

"Why shouldn't I?" he said.

 

I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!"

He said, "Like what?"

 

I said, "Well...are you religious or atheist?"

He said, "Religious."

 

I said, "Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?"

He said, "Christian."

 

I said, "Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?"

He said, "Protestant."

 

I said, "Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?"

He said, "Baptist!"

 

I said,"Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist Church of GOD or Baptist Church of the Lord?"

He said, "Baptist Church of GOD!"

 

I said, "Me too! Are you Original Baptist Church of GOD, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of GOD?"

He said,"Reformed Baptist Church of GOD!"

 

I said, "Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of GOD, reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of GOD, reformation of 1915?"

He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of GOD, reformation of 1915!"

 

I said, "Die, heretic scum", and pushed him off.

 

-- Emo Phillips

[Elsie]

Oh; yes!

The GREAT contest!

Between Catholics who go to the One True Church and those other poor retches that have been deceived by the heresies and LIES!!! of Protestantism!!!

—Wannabe_Catholic_Dude(Hail Mary)

[Blue Collar Christian]

“People are excusing themselves too much nowadays with the “but God will forgive me”.”

The Lord cannot be gamed, as He recognizes evidence and knows the heart of every man. They are only fooling themselves.

[MayflowerMadam]

LOL!!

[impactplayer]

I agree - there was no “short cut” for Jesus, but He provides the ONLY path for us to obtain full justification before the Father.
Thanks!

[aMorePerfectUnion]

.

[imardmd1]

Man-made religion. Like Jeroboam, son of Nebat (1 Kings 12:25-13:10), whose example led the Northern Kingdom to depart from God’s ways, ruler after ruler, century after century, until all the people of it were overwhelmed and scattered all over the mid-East, absorbed into the various populations, losing their identities, their relationship with the God of Israel terminated, and their whereabouts unknown to this day.

[imardmd1]

OK, MM. Please clarify how you think Post #132 is wrong.

[onedoug]

And so the Catholic Church must become a homo club like the Episcopalians?

[Mr Rogers]

“The principles involved may apply also to Gentiles, and used by Gentiles to begin to understand the significance of the Hebrew religion....I do not see how this can be a problem for you.”

Really? You wish away a significant passage in Hebrews as only applying to saved Jews (like Peter and Paul), and claim it doesn’t apply to imardmd1, Mr Rogers, or others...and you wonder why I have a problem with it?

“Let us go forward, then, to mature teaching and leave behind us the first lessons of the Christian message. We should not lay again the foundation of turning away from useless works and believing in God; 2 of the teaching about baptisms and the laying on of hands; of the resurrection of the dead and the eternal judgment. 3 Let us go forward! And this is what we will do, if God allows.

4 For how can those who abandon their faith be brought back to repent again? They were once in God’s light; they tasted heaven’s gift and received their share of the Holy Spirit; 5 they knew from experience that God’s word is good, and they had felt the powers of the coming age. 6 And then they abandoned their faith! It is impossible to bring them back to repent again, because they are again crucifying the Son of God and exposing him to public shame.

7 God blesses the soil which drinks in the rain that often falls on it and which grows plants that are useful to those for whom it is cultivated. 8 But if it grows thorns and weeds, it is worth nothing; it is in danger of being cursed by God and will be destroyed by fire.”

Nothing in there suggests it only applies to Jewish Christians. Does this passage, a few chapters later, only apply to Jewish Christians?

” 25 The Jewish high priest goes into the Most Holy Place every year with the blood of an animal. But Christ did not go in to offer himself many times, 26 for then he would have had to suffer many times ever since the creation of the world. Instead, now when all ages of time are nearing the end, he has appeared once and for all, to remove sin through the sacrifice of himself. 27 Everyone must die once, and after that be judged by God. 28 In the same manner Christ also was offered in sacrifice once to take away the sins of many. He will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to save those who are waiting for him.” - Hebrews 9

The book of Hebrews teaches about Jesus Christ to a Hebrew audience, but Jesus is not divided. He is not one Jesus to the Jews and a different Jesus to the Gentiles. He does not save Gentiles without regard for how they then live their lives but demand changed lives from Jews. One standard.

“Concerning election and predestination, we might use the analogy of a great ship on its way to heaven. The ship (the church) is chosen by God to be his very own vessel. Christ is the Captain and Pilot of this ship. All who desire to be a part of this elect ship and its Captain can do so through a living faith in Christ, by which they come on board the ship. As long as they are on the ship, in company with the ship’s Captain, they are among the elect. If they choose to abandon the ship and Captain, they cease to be part of the elect. Election is always only in union with the Captain and his ship. Predestination tells us about the ship’s destination and what God has prepared for those remaining on it. God invites everyone to come aboard the elect ship through faith in Jesus Christ.”

http://evangelicalarminians.org/A-Concise-Summary-of-the-Corporate-View-of-Election-and-Predestination

[metmom]

I hadn’t even read it.

I never responded to it.

How could I think it was wrong ?

[the lone haranguer]

Thanks, Elsie!

[the lone haranguer]

Thanks much. Appreciate the feedback.

[imardmd1]

I agree - there was no “short cut” for Jesus, but He provides the ONLY path for us to obtain full justification before the Father.

That is Jesus' part. Our part is to accept the new status and begin to commit ourselves to the process of living the holy life, each one treading the path He has laid out.

Looking at the inscripturated command cited by Simon bar Jona:

1 Peter 1:15,16 AV:

¹⁵ But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; ¹⁶ Because it is written, Be^G1096 ye holy; for I am holy.

Verse 16 in the Koine is:

διοτι γεγραπται αγιοι γενεσθε^G1096 οτι εγω αγιος ειμι

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Strong's Number G1096

γίνομαι
ginomai
ghin'-om-ahee

Strong's Definition:
A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb; to cause to be (“gen” -erate), that is, (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literally, figuratively, intensively, etc.)

(As translated variously in the KJV): - arise, be assembled, be (come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, be done, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.

Thayer's Definition:<=br> 1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
. . 2a) of events
3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
. . 3a) of men appearing in public
4) to be made, finished
. . 4a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5) to become, be made
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb
========

In this passage "be" mans "become," and it is in the second aorist tense signifying that as one stands back and looks at the summation of one's existing condition, and in the middle voice it should be due to one's willful determination as a new creature (2 Cor. 5:17) under the guidance of the Holy Spirit (Eph. 5:18). This is not something done by God to a passive subject; but rather something the subject participates in willingly.

And this is a rehearsal of God's command to His People which stands written in His Word as being still in force and not modified (perfect tense in the Greek): Peter in the above is reiterating with emphasis what he has learned from his Master in the Sermon on the Mount:

"Be^G2071 ye therefore perfect^G5046, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Mt. 5:48 AV).

------

Notes:
G2071 Here εσεσθε = middle voice, indicative mode second person plural of ἔσομαι = future tense of the verb "to be"; has the sense of being imperative and volitional on the part of the ones being instructed
G5046 τέλειοι adjective in this context meaning spiritually mature, perfected in holy behavior

-----------

Here, Jesus applies the OT Scriptures:

"For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth" (Lev. 11:44 AV; my underlining for emphasis).

"Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy" (Lev. 19:2 AV)

. "Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God" (Lev 20:7 AV).

===========

What this means is that while the newly regenerated child of God is a spiritually immature babe in Christ, he/she is commanded to employ his/her newly acquired power over sin and self, and to volitionally participate in the process of sanctification, of becoming holy, through exercising his/her wholly committed saving trust in The Lord and Master, usually under discipleship conducted by a mature servant of God.

That is, given a reasonable opportunity to begin to show signs of a holy life, if there is no determination of the professed "believer" to participate in the ongoing sanctification that modifies his/her lifestyle, it is virtually certain that the individual must be treated as though he/she has never really been saved at all; and if necessary, be treated by the assembly of Christians as still effectively lost.

There is no salvation without a consequent engagement in personal sanctification following: these aspects of regenertion are inseparable:

"Whosoever is born of God doth not ^habituallycommit sin; for his^God's seed^{sperma=the Word of God} remaineth in him^{the regenerated one}: and he cannot ^{habitually commit}sin, because he is^irrevocably born of God" (1 Jn 3:9 AV, wit my superscripted explanatory clarifications).

=============

The Roman Catholic is probably right, when he assesses the behavior of a non-Catholic (Protestant or otherwise) "believer" who claims to be saved, professes to be a Christian, but shows no sign of holiness and still lives the old depraved life; and concludes that this person under observation is not saved.

But when he assumes from this observation that the apostate's religion is false, and RCC is true, this is an untenable platform from which to criticize the body of doctrine or its preachers with which the false professer claims to be associated.

[imardmd1]

>> I hadn’t even read it.
I never responded to it.
How could I think it was wrong ? <<

You indeed did. In Post #137 you replied "AMEN!" to impactplayer's Post #125 which seemed to negatively assess my Post #123. And that is why I asked you to clarify.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“And so the Catholic Church must become a homo club like the Episcopalians?

Been true for *at least* 7 popes in Germany.

[impactplayer]

Very interesting discussion.
Two comments:

1) If anything is left that I MUST do for full justification before the Father, then Christs’ work was not enough - which I reject. We can never achieve Holiness, this is imputed upon us as a gift. And those who have been fully justified and are living with imputed Holiness respond with enthusiasm and joy!

2) What happens to those who do not exhibit the enthusiasm and joy which I would expect? NOT MY PROBLEM! To even guess is to pass judgement, which we have been clearly admonished not to do. I trust Jesus to know the sheep from the goats and to sort them accordingly. He knows His own.

Thanks!

[imardmd1]

Apparerntly, your assessment of the issue comes short of recognizing that the message is to the Hebrews, some of whom who had been engaged in misleading the saved Gentiles by wrongly applying OT Covenant practices to the Gentile converts by treating them as they would have dealt with proselytes to Judaism. Other Hebrews, though Christianized, had not abandoned their cultural traditions. They still did not fully appreciate the mysteries of the OT Scriptures as revealed in their meaning to the New Testament.

Your reply still does not displace who the audience of the book was when it was written. I have no idea why you continue to fight the facts. The writer of the epistle explains to Jews the significance of their OT training to understand NT doctrines. Most Gentiles at that time had no sense of what the Jewish religion was about, and doubtlessly little interest in exploring the details of a now-dead religion.

I fail to see how the last paragraph of your note has any bearing on this little debate. In my estimate at the time of the Rapture, all the visible earthly churches will remain on earth, have plenty of members remaining in them, and be functioning. In actuality, the only two places in Hebrews where the term "church" is used have no place in this irrelevant distracting citation. The first mention in Chapter 2 is a quotation from Psalm 22 and refers to Jewry, while the one in Chapter 12 is about His Church already established in Heaven, not a ship going to that destination. Hebrews is not about the Church or churches on earth. It is about the Jews and about how and why God chose them to prepare for their Messiah, the Great Shepherd, to fulfill the Law and to present Him to the world as Savior.

In the formation of early Christianity, the Gentiles educated in Greek philosophy were more interested in Platonizing the interpretation of the Bible than in explaining the meaning of the New Covenant to individuals raised in Jewish traditions.So the letter to the Hebrews written then is still of great value in reaching out to Jews today, not in dealing with local Gentile church problems.

But if you want to dig into it to understand the Jewish culture and religion before the time of Christ, well, sure, why not? Essentially though, your interests was not its primary purpose, eh?

For your information, I memorized the whole book, word for word, over a nine-year period, so I've got a pretty good idea of what its purpose was and what it was about.

[imardmd1]

If anything is left that I MUST do for full justification before the Father, then Christs’ work was not enough - which I reject.

Where did I say or infer that? All I said is that there were some actions that Jesus had to perform subsequent to His Cross-death before the judicial pardon of the pleading, trusting sinner could be issued.

We can never achieve Holiness, this is imputed upon us as a gift.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. It is Jesus' righteousness that is imputed to the repentant regenerated justified servant of his new Owner, The Lord Jesus Christ. The quality of holiness is not imputed to the new babe in Christ. It is earned by personal growth in the ongoing lifelong process of sanctification. That is why the redeemed believer will be appear at the Judgment Seat of Christ to receive rewards based on his/her works. Or absence of them, as it may be for those who think it is not their personal responsibility. You have completely ignored my lesson regarding personal responsibility for becoming holy. Holding to your heretical error is precisely why the Romanists reject their perception of Calvinism.

Have you not read Hebrews 12:4-10? Hve you not memorized Romans 6, especially verses 19 and 22? You are saved by faith alone, apart from works, but after being saved and simultaneously justified, you are expected to start progressing on the sanctification curve through personal application and spiritual growth as a disciple. none of that is imputed.

Let me suggest that you might consider gaining a better knowledge of Biblical doctrine through regular guidance as a disciple of an experienced servant of God, sort of the way Timothy matured.

[impactplayer]

Please - I did not intend to infer that you disagreed with the completed work of Jesus.

I agree that we never “achieve” Holiness on earth, and that this is a process. However, I was a tad concerned that you might be tending to judge by there actions that some might not “saved”. I know you did not say this in so many words - just came through in what I was reading.

That said, these are not issues of Salvation but of living the faith - and as the Cardinal says, it is tough to be assured of salvation while striving for more. But strive we must, to run the good race.