Posted on 05/30/2019 12:14:10 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
Great book. It belongs next to the Bible in every believer’s home.
This is not a new debate. I call it Bob Larson (”Rock & the Church”) versus Larry Norman (”Upon this Rock”). I heard both men speak in person in the 1970s.
You are being legalistic. The recorded music industry in general has always been hedonistic. Frank Sinatra? “My Way”? His lifestyle was more worldly than many rockers, yet many older, traditional, professing Christians regard his style of music as somehow wholesome.
I am no great fan of Greg Laurie (whom I have also heard speak live), but a blanket condemnation of a music genre because of its common association is going too far.
That is the sort of argument some used against Igor Stravinsky in 1913 after the debut of The Rite of Spring.
Jesus did not shun sinners. He refused to sin like them, and exhorted them not to sin.
He did not categorically tell all rich men to give up their wealth, did he? He told one specific rich man to do so, because it was a stumbling block to that one particular man.
In case you did not know: A wealthy lifestyle has a far longer association with every conceivable kind of debauchery than the rocking lifestyle.
“It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” [Mark 10:25]
Some things are inherently sinful (e.g., abortion); many things are not. Many are dependent upon the individual and the situation.
“Not that which goes into the mouth defiles a man; but that which comes out of the mouth, this defiles the man.” [Matthew 15:11]
“One man esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.” [Romans 14:5]
I am not a big fan of the tendency to glorify former Prodigal Sons (Bad Boys) in ministry as somehow necessary to reaching others who are worldly, but there is a place for all.
“I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.” [I Corinthians 9:22B]
I have served in ministry. I have never used drugs, never been drunk, and have never fornicated. Does that sound to you like someone who trivializes sanctification?
Nevertheless, I repeat: You are going too far, and being legalistic.
If Alice Cooper cannot live as a sincere disciple of Jesus Christ while maintaining a connection to that sub-culture, then he does need to divorce himself completely from its association. But that determination must be made between him and the Lord.
[See 63.]
You have a valid point - but only up to a point. I suspect, however, that you are being legalistic. I also note your tagline reference to the Baptist Church. I frankly consider that a telling clue.
I attended a private school primarily populated by Baptists (and other non-Baptist Anabaptists; I was one of the few Protestants). They often denounced me as worldly because I would not categorically denounce drinking and dancing (which, as a boy who did neither, I nevertheless knew was a legalistic and unBiblical stance).
Many of those Baptists went on to support communistic labor unions, and to vote relentlessly Democrat. They were not actually conservative; they were legalistically traditional.
I reject the categorical denunciation of things that are often individual. I reject the categorical one-size-fits-all moralism that is really legalism in thin disguise.
Rich persons are historically, indisputably, the most universally debauched of all (since they can indulge what others only contemplate). Should all rich men give up their cars and clothes before witnessing to others? Did Christ tell all rich men to give up their wealth to follow him? No, he told one specific rich man to do so.
To paraphrase myself from 63:
I have served in ministry, I have never used drugs, never been drunk (although I occasionally drink modestly), and have never fornicated. (I also have never danced, but that was because I grew up surrounded by Baptists, and was never taught how.)
I ended up living a more genuinely sanctified and conservative lifestyle than many of the Baptists who maligned me.
In my experience and observation, Baptists are too often moralistic but not moral. “Born Again” Jimmy Carter is a graphic representation of that type.
As for Paul, yes, he crucified himself to the world; he also employed all means to save some. He did not refuse to have any association with the statue to the Unknown God, on the grounds that it was pagan - just the sort of sanctimonious rejection that the Baptists of my youth would have demanded - he used it to reach others.
I was a math/science nerd as a boy. Music was not a major influence. At 44 I was laid off, and went back to school to study music composition; I had decided I wanted to set poetry to music. One thing led to another. I took much theory, voice, chorus, and numerous history classes: “Classical” (really: Gregorian, Renaissance, Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Modern), Jazz, Rock).
The Beach Boys are my all-time favorite – the reason I became a semi-professional chorister. Rock musicologists have often cited them as one of the most pioneering and influential bands ever; even The Beatles were influenced by them.
Here is a suggested sampling:
Complete Albums:
Pet Sounds (1966)
It is often voted the greatest rock/pop album of all time. It sounds somewhat conventional by today’s standards, precisely because it influenced so much that came after it. (I have dubbed this The Haydn Effect: His symphonies sound somewhat generic because he virtually invented the symphony.) It was too advanced for America (peaked at #10), but fared much better in Great Britain (peaked at #2) – where it is revered to this day. It was their first studio album to fail to go Gold, and began their commercial decline.
SMiLE (unreleased 1967; released 2011)
This was to be their Sgt. Pepper’s before the Beatles even started recording that album. It was never released due to great dissension in the group over Brian Wilson’s radical approach to composing and recording. Capitol bootlegs of it have been enormously influential since the 1980s. (Some revised/redubbed songs from these sessions ended up on later albums.) I call it Aaron Copland Meets Rock and Roll Americana.
Sunflower (1970)
This is their most cohesive effort of their experimental period, after Pet Sounds. It was a massive commercial failure (they were considered uncool at that time, and were essentially banned from FM airplay), yet was included in Rolling Stone’s Top 500 Albums of all Time decades later.
Individual Songs (from other albums: Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, Friends, 20/20, Surf’s Up, Carl and the Passions: So Tough; Holland):
Heroes and Villains
Good Vibrations
Wild Honey
Aren’t You Glad
Country Air
Wake the World
Do It Again
I Can Hear Music
Cottonfields
Time to Get Alone
The Nearest Faraway Place [instrumental]
Surf’s Up [not a surfing song – a pop/rock masterpiece]
Till I die
Long Promised Road
Feel Flows
Marcella
California Saga [three-song suite, including spoken poetry]
This is off the top of my head. They produced many original songs, as well as some definitive covers, before becoming essentially an oldies band.
The issue here is not salvation, nor of justification. Those are matters between the individual and the Triune God, nor even of primary sanctification. which involes the coming of the Holy Ghost to live wihin the newly born spiritual man.
The spiritually mature true servant of God allows Him to be the Judge of the standing of another human who has verbally professed his/her allegiance to the Risen Messiah. However, it is also within the purview of the Christ-follower, whose spiritual progress has allowed him/her through the power of the Spirit to overcome The Wicked One and the old habits which had been formed in one's slavery to the god of this world, to evaluate whether or not the candidate is demonstrating the expected effects of having a new Master, Christ Jesus, as one's all-powerful Lord.
If you do not understand this, it is because you yourself have not yet overcome the power of the lusts of the flesh so as to exercise spiritual discernment in assessing the fitness--the state--of another "believer" to be treated as if the professor is truly redeemed, or if he/she is merely operating in a temporary burst of religious enthusiasm; and whether he/she is making observable progress in his conduct, or just treading water while still in bondage to Satan, sin, self, and the world system, thus a danger to the operation and reputation of the local church of regenerated souls. That, my FRiend, is not "legalism"; it is the Spirit-led management of as much of Gods earthly estate (including one's own body) as the Father has assigned for his/her supervision.
It is not a rare thing that, the sinner recognizing one's powerlessness to conquer one's own lusts and the blandishments of the sinful world system, and having through the Good News cried out to God for salvation from one's own sins and sinning, fails to continue exercising a saving trust in God, and falls back into his/her old ways, never to rise again.
So, it is not legalism nor a Pharisaic mindset to bring this common phenomenon to the attention of the watching worlds. It is a God-mandated function for God's spiritual warriors to warn both the body of professing believers as well as the watching wicked world, of the consequences of falling back into error through an incomplete yielding of oneself to the Christ of the Bible.
Now if (and note that I say "IF") "Alice Cooper" (the phony shame-escaping stage name of Vincent Furnier) has professed an affiliation with Christendom. yet plunged back into that same occupation of rock music, with its culture, acquaintances, language, fans, clothing, and the trappings and power of famedom and fandom. enjoying an extra benefits of extended audience of uncritical undiscipled Jesus-professors, then it is he that is the phony hypocritical Pharisee religionist, not me or those who join in voicing their reservations as to his genuineness and "Christian" integrity.
What does Paul say in the inspired words that he addresses the carnal Corinthians?: 2 Corinthians 6:14-7:1 (AV):
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?If This rock star has not left his pedestal and prostrated himself before Christ, admitting his depravity, repenting from a lascivious lifestyle, and wholly engaged in perfecting a state of holiness through ongoing persistent progressive salvation, then he is not the model a regenerated disciple of Jesus should be observing with imitative awe and acceptance.
And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."
I think y'all may need to back off, pals, lest you also be judged instead of judging my responses.
IF
T answer your question above, the answer is "NO"!
I am sorry, but your argument is logically, theologically, and Biblically so unsound that I don't have the time to refute all your claims. Pasting on the label of "legalistic" is a common denial that there are some standards for deportment as a regenerated believer-disciple-priest-Friend and wholly-owned bond-slave of Jesus Christ that are irrefutable and well-known. I'm not accepting that mis-placed righteousness from you.
However, I have taken a rather lengthy, probably to you boring, route of defining what a Spirit-minded person (i Cor. 2:15-16, cf Php. 2:5,7-8 and Gal. 2:20) might think of this matter. Clearly, the article itself, and comments of many responders, have shown no ability to shun behaviors that misrepresent what grateful allegiance to Jesus as Savior and Lord really amounts to. I believe your horse here is about fifteen hands too high. The sin of Pharisees was/is not "legalism"--it was/is phony hypocrisy.
Luke 12:1 (AV):
"In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all,
Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy."
Incredible!
There used to be a ‘Reverend’ who went around to college campuses (I saw him at GA Southern), talking about the evils of fornication. Was that you? If so, I want to thank you, because you caused us to fornicate even more.
I did not grow up in the church. I was raised Jewish not by blood but by adoption. I knew nothing about God until I was in my 20’s. I came to believe in Jesus Christ and was baptized in Penocasal church. I struggled to be Holy as God is Holy. I guess you can say I backslid and committed every sin the bible speaks of. I lived in misery and depression, living in the world. I recommitted my life to Jesus in my early 40’s. Jesus saved my life and I owe it all to him. I hate sin because I know what it does to the soul. I am no legalistic as you claim. I just know Jesus as my personal Savior.
“Are you not aware that rock music and a Christ-following lifestyle do not mix?”
Music is music and a lifestyle is a lifestyle, so no, I reject that premise.
Don’t forget “The Beach Boys Love You”. Obviously a flawed album, but doing a whole rock album with mostly synthesizers was certainly a few years ahead of the curve.
FRiend, I don't think you can. One's music is integral to one's lifestyle, an inseparable state of the heart. You can have a worldly, carnal heart, or you can have a Christ-loving spiritual heart: you can't have both. Trying to pretend that would be phony,
How sad I am then, Boogieman, for your intellectual and spiritual poverty. The love of rock (lascivious, orgiastic) music comes out of a carnal heart, which cannot be the source of spiritual, everlasting, Christ-pleasing life.
Here is an example of how dailywalking in the Spirit might be expressed:
"Living For Jesus" (click here)=========
(Sung by the choir of KwaSizabantu Mission in South Africa.)
Living for Jesus, a life that is true,
Striving to please Him in all that I do;
Yielding allegiance, glad-hearted and free,
This is the pathway of blessing for me.Refrain:Living for Jesus Who died in my place,
O Jesus, Lord and Savior, I give myself to Thee,
For Thou, in Thy atonement, didst give Thyself for me;
I own no other Master, my heart shall be Thy throne;
My life I give, henceforth to live, O Christ, for Thee alone.
Bearing on Calv’ry my sin and disgrace;
Such love constrains me to answer His call,
Follow His leading and give Him my all.
Living for Jesus, wherever I am,
Doing each duty in His holy Name;
Willing to suffer affliction and loss,
Deeming each trial a part of my cross.
Living for Jesus through earth’s little while,
My dearest treasure, the light of His smile;
Seeking the lost ones He died to redeem,
Bringing the weary to find rest in Him.
(Thomas O. Chisholm, 1917)
Colossians 1:10; Romans 12:1; Galatians 2:20
Well, there you are, Boogieman. Do you see Alice Cooper boogeying with that in a public performance? Or presenting himself to his current audiences as a boogievangelist? Eh?
“FRiend, I don’t think you can. One’s music is integral to one’s lifestyle, an inseparable state of the heart.”
Just you saying that doesn’t make it so. Sometimes I listen to country, but that doesn’t make me a hillbilly. Other times I’ll listen to jazz but I don’t run around with a black turtleneck on shooting heroin either.
Music, like any other form of human expression, can be used to convey good things or bad things, but a genre of music is quite different from the subculture that might grow up around that music.
“The love of rock (lascivious, orgiastic) music comes out of a carnal heart...”
Now this is just nonsense. Music is built on the fundamental principles of harmonics, and it was God who designed those principles, so he is the ultimate architect of all the myriad things we can express with music. Now if God wrote down in the Bible somewhere “Thou shalt not play music in 4/4 time signature with a strong backbeat and electronic amplification”, I’ll buy your argument that such is forbidden, but since He did not, I’m going to say you are just trying to impose your own little dictates on everyone else.
“Well, there you are, Boogieman. Do you see Alice Cooper boogeying with that in a public performance? Or presenting himself to his current audiences as a boogievangelist?”
Alice Cooper earns his living playing music. Does a bricklayer only have to lay bricks for churches in order to be a Christian? Is a printer only allowed to print Bibles?
If we can’t say “yes” to those questions, then we can’t insist that a musician can only play sacred music if they are Christian.
Not everyones transformation is outwardly visible.
Let me ask you do you have any hobbies?
Are any of them the same as the hobbies you had prior to being born again?
Are hobbies not worldly things?
None of us are without sin - even if we are born again - because none of us are perfect we will always have sin within us.
Being with Christ we acknowledge our failings and know that only through him can our failings be forgiven. We fall and get back up daily in our faith asking forgiveness and knowing that through His grace we are cleansed.
Judge not, lest ye be judged.
Sure, some of this is true, but "music" is not just vibrations of a string or an air column. The whole of music includes words also that express what is in the heart. You are trying to separate the intents and purpose of music by deconstructing it into amoral elements. I've heard the story before , so I'm not falling for that approach.
Neither is listening to music, nor deeper still performing it, which are not quite as essential as the creating of a melody, or a song-poem, or an arrangement to produce a desired effect. I've done all of those, and know that even without words, the notes, their progression, and timing can be arranged in such a way as to evoke a fleshly, lascivious response. But if your emotions are stirred in a sensual way, that is a thing of the flesh; and when coopted by servants of the god of this world in a degraded way, that is rock music, dance music, and a lot of current country music and musicians as well.
When this begins to be problematic is when the degraded forms are re-imported back into the Christian culture by undiscerning undiscipled peripheral camp followers of the movement, in ways that degrade the human/God relationship.
This article and debate is about "Alice Cooper" and his example, his refusal to dissociate himself from a source of income derived from the rock industry. It is not about you, or your preferences, which is yet another and different matter.
The question is, can a reformed rocker justify going back into his old trade be a true witness of a changed heart and a changed life, an example for evangelizing new believers and guiding their development? I doubt it. Defending the old life of the old man as being a part of his witness is just a way to deflect the protester's criticism. Plain common sense says "no"--If you are truly regenerated, you will be progressively separating yourself from the dismaying behavior and culture you were engaged in, discarding the things that characterize the unsavory witness, and move on in the new direction of holiness, be it one's religious life or just the ordinary process of realigning your methods of providing a living. Being an honest, hard-working garbage truck driver would be a far better way of existing than dumping a load of figuratively mental and moral garbage on the dull-minded audience using the rock band as the vehicle to deliver it.
So deal with that. and stop defending the model of merely putting a different label on the same old product, as Vincent Furnier has done.
“I’ve done all of those, and know that even without words, the notes, their progression, and timing can be arranged in such a way as to evoke a fleshly, lascivious response. But if your emotions are stirred in a sensual way, that is a thing of the flesh...”
Yeah, I’m just going to say I think this is a load of hooey. Show me the verses in the Bible where God names the forbidden chord progressions or melodies that we aren’t supposed to play. Otherwise you are just trying to impose your own man-made rules on people and draping it in some sanctimonious pretense.
Strange that you should presume such a thing. You would never do that, right?
God judges. I do not. And you? In a state of denial, I guess, eh?
Why don't you check our Exodus 32:17-26, Aaron's first rock concert. At the end, Moses asked the question, demanding an answer:
"Who is on The LORD's side?"
If not, you died.
Let me ask you the same. What side are you on?
“Strange that you should presume such a thing.”
How is it strange? Can you produce the Bible verses that tell us what music we are forbidden to play or not? If not, then obviously those rules come from man and not the Bible. I can certainly produce Bible verses telling us what to think about those who want to impose additional man-made rules on us in God’s name, if you aren’t aware of them.
“Why don’t you check our Exodus 32:17-26, Aaron’s first rock concert.”
Ok, at this point you almost convinced me that you are just trolling. Do you actually think what was being condemned was the people singing and dancing? If you do have that mistaken impression, all you need to do is continue reading to verse 31 and Moses himself spells out exactly what the nature of the sin was, so you have no excuse for mistaking it:
“31 So Moses went back to the Lord and said, “Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold.”
Moses didn’t say “Lord, they are singing rowdy tunes!” or “God, they are dancing in an exuberant manner!” Nope, they were condemned for IDOLATRY.
True, but I was complying with his request for music from their middle period (1966-1973).
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