Posted on 02/06/2020 9:17:14 AM PST by Salvation
That in Christ, w can pray for each other --- and that love is stronger than death ---is still believed by the majority of Christians in the world, and has been since the Resurrection of Our Blessed Lord.
Excellent homily.
Good illustration of how the Protestant heretics are unable to access the Holy Scripture.
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It's cute when Roman Catholics cite the KJV.
Roman Catholics really do not want to appeal to this passage for a number of reasons.
1) it teaches there is no purgatory.
1a) your eternal destination is your eternal destination once you die.
2) There is no communication with people on earth.
3) There is no communication with the dead. In v27 the rich man appeals to Abraham to send someone to his father's house.
Abraham replied they have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear.
The rich man continues to implore Abraham to send someone from the dead.
Abraham replies:But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”
The meaning Christ was trying to get across is if people didn't believe Moses and the Prophets they weren't going to believe someone rising from the dead.....Him.
This message should really be heeded by those Roman Catholics believing apparitions and promises of avoiding the the Hell fire if they wear man-made pieces of cloth around their necks.
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4) Jesus and Peter Simultaneously Prayed to Saints and for the Dead
Tabitha was a disciple in Joppa who died. Peter prayed to her when he said “Tabitha, rise.” See Acts 9:36-41.
This is not "praying to" Tabitha. The lengths Roman Catholics will go to justify their false Scriptural understandings.
She was dead, and he was addressing her. There is no impenetrable wall between heaven and earth. This is not only praying to the dead, but for the dead, since the passage says that Peter “prayed” before addressing Tabitha first person. And he was praying for her to come back to life.
Let's get the context of this event:
36Now in Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha (which translated in Greek is called Dorcas); this woman was abounding with deeds of kindness and charity which she continually did.
37And it happened at that time that she fell sick and died; and when they had washed her body, they laid it in an upper room.
38Since Lydda was near Joppa, the disciples, having heard that Peter was there, sent two men to him, imploring him, “Do not delay in coming to us.”
39So Peter arose and went with them. When he arrived, they brought him into the upper room; and all the widows stood beside him, weeping and showing all the tunics and garments that Dorcas used to make while she was with them.
40But Peter sent them all out and knelt down and prayed, and turning to the body, he said, “Tabitha, arise.” And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter, she sat up.
41And he gave her his hand and raised her up; and calling the saints and widows, he presented her alive.
42It became known all over Joppa, and many believed in the Lord.
43And Peter stayed many days in Joppa with a tanner named Simon.
Acts 9:36-43 NASB
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Questions to be asked.
Who was Peter praying to for this event?
What was the purpose of this event?
Do we see this replicated today?
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Our Lord Jesus does the same thing with regard to Lazarus. He prays for Lazarus (a dead man: John 11:41-42) and then speaks directly to a dead man (in effect, “praying” to him): “Lazarus, come out” (John 11:43).
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Once again, the context of the passage will bring the correct meaning into focus.
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38So Jesus, again being deeply moved within, came to the tomb. Now it was a cave, and a stone was lying against it.
39Jesus said, “Remove the stone.” Martha, the sister of the deceased, said to Him, “Lord, by this time there will be a stench, for he has been dead four days.”
40Jesus said to her, “Did I not say to you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”
41So they removed the stone. Then Jesus raised His eyes, and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me.
42“I knew that You always hear Me; but because of the people standing around I said it, so that they may believe that You sent Me.”
43When He had said these things, He cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth.”
44The man who had died came forth, bound hand and foot with wrappings, and his face was wrapped around with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.”
45Therefore many of the Jews who came to Mary, and saw what He had done, believed in Him.
46But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them the things which Jesus had done.
John 11:38-46 NASB
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Jesus prayed to the Father.
He commanded Lazarus to come forth.
This is not "praying" to him in any sense of the word.
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2) Praying to Saints: Saul Petitions the Prophet Samuel After the Latter’s Death
1 Samuel 28:15-16 (RSV) Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress; for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams; therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.” And Samuel said, “Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy?”
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Dave Armstrong really doesn't understand Scripture and completely ignores context.
I post the passage for context.
3Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him and buried him in Ramah, his own city. And Saul had removed from the land those who were mediums and spiritists. 4So the Philistines gathered together and came and camped in Shunem; and Saul gathered all Israel together and they camped in Gilboa. 5When Saul saw the camp of the Philistines, he was afraid and his heart trembled greatly. 6When Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD did not answer him, either by dreams or by Urim or by prophets. 7Then Saul said to his servants, “Seek for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.” And his servants said to him, “Behold, there is a woman who is a medium at En-dor.”
8Then Saul disguised himself by putting on other clothes, and went, he and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night; and he said, “Conjure up for me, please, and bring up for me whom I shall name to you.” 9But the woman said to him, “Behold, you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off those who are mediums and spiritists from the land. Why are you then laying a snare for my life to bring about my death?” 10Saul vowed to her by the LORD, saying, “As the LORD lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing.” 11Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” 12When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul.” 13The king said to her, “Do not be afraid; but what do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a divine being coming up out of the earth.” 14He said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped with a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and did homage.
15Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” And Saul answered, “I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines are waging war against me, and God has departed from me and no longer answers me, either through prophets or by dreams; therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I should do.” 16Samuel said, “Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has departed from you and has become your adversary? 17“The LORD has done accordingly as He spoke through me; for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, to David. 18“As you did not obey the LORD and did not execute His fierce wrath on Amalek, so the LORD has done this thing to you this day. 19“Moreover the LORD will also give over Israel along with you into the hands of the Philistines, therefore tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. Indeed the LORD will give over the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines!”
1 Samuel 28:3-19 NASB
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I think the content of the passage speaks for itself.
Whoever Dave Armstrong is should be banned from writing again.
I have no problem with the "Body of Christ". However, the communication within the body is from believers on earth to God and between believers alive on earth to others on earth.
I'd love to be able to talk to my mom and dad who passed away in 2012. But, I know I cannot based on Scripture.
And I'm completely good with that. Why?
Because I know I'm going to spend an eternity with them and God in Heaven.
So if I can't talk to them now for whatever time God allows me on this earth, I'm ok with that.
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This isn't "New Age," it's as old as belief in Christ.
This business of tapping into other departed believers is as this is not witnessed in the NT.
Why did you suppose you can find inscriptions on the tombs of the martyrs in the Catacombs of Priscilla that say "Ora pro me" (Pray for Me)?
Don't know.
We know they probably didn't write it.
Possible lack of confidence.
Possible lack of understanding.
These are from the late 2nd century through the 4th century.
I posted another reply to one of your fellow (?) RCs on an article linked attempting to "prove" prayers to the dead.
Whoever the author of that article is he should never be allowed to write again.
And he has a metaphysics.
I'm not saying you should agree.
But we tend to hold that God embraces all of time in, as Monsignor Pope says (and he is by no means the first to say it) God's eternal now.
We all agree,don't we, that any good we do, any holiness we enjoy is not ours but God's. So if any benefit, any goodness follows from his goodness exercised on us, why must it be limited to our creaturely sequential experience of before, now, after? To him all time is now. We are conduits for his good now in February of 2020, and such good things as follow are applied now in 1218.
...
I can see an argument against the idea that good things God does through me might be of any use to anyone. But I think the time and space problems are a slam dunk.
New Age thinking is all I can say this is.
What intercessory prayer is about,is not "our power" at all, but about our unity in Christ, who is (with the Father and the Holy Spirit) the only one who can help or bless --- not us acting on our own, nor any other power in the Universe.
As St. Paul tells us (Ephesians 1:3-4)
Blessed be the God and FatherThat's so clearly and beautifully stated.
of our Lord Jesus Christ,
who has blessed us in Christ
with every spiritual power in the heavens,
For He chose us in Him
before the foundation of the world
to be holy and blameless in His presence.
God the Father now blesses "us" with "these spiritual blessings." What spiritual blessings? "Spiritual" necessarily means timeless, because the body now is constricted and bounded up in time and space, earthly; but the spirit has a spiritual nature, heavenly: not bound by time and pace, which are material things.
You know this yourself: you can pray for a person 12,000 miles away, and they can benefit instantly, no Skype or emails necessary (!) because God, omnipresent,is present to us both.
"Spiritual blessings in the heavenly places, in Christ" ---once again, this isn't chained up in time and space: it is in the heavenly place, in Christ, who can go from one end of the Universe to the other at the speed of though, and is Lord of Past, Present, and Future --- all at once.
"Before the foundation of the world" --- there's that term again. Like our Savior, "the lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world." Psalm 139, speaking of an embryonic child, says: "Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Thy book they were all written, The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them."
Do you sense the utter freedom of the spiritual reality here?
In our own powers, we were severely limited to right here and right now. In the world of the spirit, in Christ none of this limitation applies.
Do not think that your prayer is hemmed in by your bodily constraints. You are not praying in your own power at all, but in Christ to whom all time is the Eternal Present, and all space is as easily encompassed as a hazelnut in His hand.
Christ yesterday and today
The Alpha and Omega
All time belongs to Him
And all the ages.
To Him be glory and power
Through all ages forever.
Amen?
YET, that is exactly what one of the points the article posted by ebb references in its defense of praying to/for the dead in its out of context appeal to Samuel and Saul.
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What intercessory prayer is about,is not "our power" at all, but about our unity in Christ, who is (with the Father and the Holy Spirit) the only one who can help or bless --- not us acting on our own, nor any other power in the Universe.
Yes...in the here and now. You are correct we can pray for other believers around the world....but this is in the here and now.
We cannot pray to or for those believers who died in the 5th century or even yesterday.
I am somewhat encouraged that you recognize that Christ, with the Father and Spirit, is the only one Who can help or bless....nor any other power in the Universe.
You just made the best case against the Brown Scapular and Mary's intercession and the necessity to pray TO Mary.
You're getting there!
Eh, I never said that. What I did say was I am not convinced that his interpretation of those particular bible verses is a Catholic interpretation given traditional Catholic bible commentaries do not provide any commentary on those two verses (Hebrews 11:39-40). The author is a Vatican II priest, so I always am skeptical whenever they write anything supposedly from a Catholic perspective. So, I would prefer if those attacking it wouldn't assume it's Catholic.
The dude either is or is not writing from a Roman Catholic perspective.
He is a Msgr in the Roman Catholic church.
The problem for the Roman Catholic, be they a pre-Vatican II or post Vatican II Roman Catholic, is Rome has not provided a dogmatic position on the verses in question.
This leaves the Roman Catholic with only the opinion of those who address the verse(s).
Your choice of words makes it sound like I was certain it was not from a Catholic perspective. I never said I was certain...I said I wasn’t convinced.
He is either quoting it from a RC perspective or he isn’t. The dude’s a Roman Catholic....one can only presume he’s quoting from a Roman Catholic understanding.
One would like to think.
"1) it teaches there is no purgatory."
It doesn't say one dim thing about Purgatory: there is no reference to that at all. The rich man was evidently a damned soul in hell.
"1a) your eternal destination is your eternal destination once you die."
That's true--- but that's Catholic doctrine. At your particular judgment, at the moment of death, your fate is sealed: either Heaven or Hell, irrevocably. (1 Cor 3:15) Some will still have to suffer loss: "but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire." (God's child — though he suffer for a time---- will still be saved even though he has to pass through the fire of purification and discipline, says Paul.)
2) There is no communication with people on earth.
The passage does not say this. It says there is a impassable chasm between Heaven and Hell, not between Heaven and Earth. It likewise says that Abraham or Lazarus *wouldn't" go down as messengers to the rich man's brothers, not that they *couldn't* go down if God permitted it. Moses and Elijah come down to converse with Jesus--- no impassable chasm! --- as well as all those messenger angels throughout the Bible. There are clearly lines of communication open, and citizens of of Heaven CAN go down to earth, if God so orders.
And on and on. I don't have time to fisk the whole thing this morning (eek, it's already noon!) but you get the idea...
That's correct....it doesn't say one "dim thing about Purgatory".....because there is NO purgatory.
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>>"1a) your eternal destination is your eternal destination once you die."<<
That's true--- but that's Catholic doctrine.
I'm glad Roman Catholicism agrees with NT Christianity for a change.
At your particular judgment, at the moment of death, your fate is sealed: either Heaven or Hell, irrevocably. (1 Cor 3:15) Some will still have to suffer loss: "but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire." (God's child — though he suffer for a time---- will still be saved even though he has to pass through the fire of purification and discipline, says Paul.)
Again, let's get this verse in CONTEXT....something seemingly lost on the Roman Catholic.
10According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.
11For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work.
14If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
1 Corinthians 3:10-15 NASB
IF this passage is about purgatory then it teaches this:
EVERYONE will go through purgatory. That's not RC dogma IIRC.
That tells me your rendering of this passage is incorrect.
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>> 2) There is no communication with people on earth.<<
The passage does not say this.
Well, yes it does.
27“And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— 28for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29“But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ Luke 16:27-29 NASB
Abraham pointed him to the Scriptures.
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Moses and Elijah come down to converse with Jesus---
And they only spoke with Jesus...not Peter or James or John.
There are clearly lines of communication open, and citizens of of Heaven CAN go down to earth, if God so orders.
IF God so wills.
However, all of our prayers are directed to God. Peter, James and John were not seeking out Moses or Elijah. Based on Peter's reaction about wanting to build a tabernacle there for each suggests he really didn't understand the magnitude of this one time event.
Notice his offer was ignored. Roman Catholics would do well to learn from this passage about building shrines to Mary and other saints.
1) It is a basic logical error to say say that something does not exist because it was not mentioned. The Lazarus and Dives parable does not mention Purgatory; nor does it mention angels, nor devils, nor Dives' Particular Judgment, nor even God. God is not mentioned in the parable! That does not mean angels, devils, purgatory, and God do not exist. It's like saying that if a story mentions Cleveland and Cincinnati, but not Dayton, therefore: poof! Dayton does not exist.
2) Once again, you include a couple column-inches of additional verses which do not even remotely prove what you claim. You say IF this passage is about purgatory then it teaches that EVERYONE will go through purgatory." NO it doesn't. It says that *IF* any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss: not that "every man's work is burned up, and he will suffer loss." You forgot the word *IF*. It means that some do, and some don't. Attention to what the text actually says requires noticing the words.
3) The text does not say that neither Abraham nor Lazarus *could* visit earth, as in, it would be forbidden, or impossible, for them to do so. (You disagree? Show me the verse.) It shows Abraham declining Dives' request: that's all. How do we know that? Because so many episodes of the Bible show, precisely, messengers or witnesses coming from heaven to earth.
4)Elijah and Moses evidently spoke enough for Peter, James and John to know who they were and what they were discussing! The Transfiguration accounts in Matthew, Mark, and Luke are unanimous that Moses and Elijah appeared to *them*, and that afterward, they came down the mountain discussing among themselves what was discussed on the mountain, what "rising from the dead" meant and why "Elijah must come first." They were told a lot of tremendous things that they didn't understand.
And why did Jesus take them up there in the first place? Because this visitation was meant for *them*.
5) If by "prayer" you mean "adoration," yes it must be directed to God alone. But if by "prayer" you ALSO mean communication in a spiritual way, and the sharing of spiritual goods, then this is accomplished through our being joined together in the Mystical Body of Christ. All are praying mutually joined to Christ, because all are one, and that One is Christ Jesus our Lord.
People don't STOP being joined to Christ in this way, when they enter heaven! Mutual prayer is the very bond he have in Christ. It is the exchange of expressions of love and devotion and mutual aid which is all in, with, and through Christ. And we need this, just like we need breathing. Paul says that like the organs, limbs and parts of one Body, we need each other.
Tagline.
Was purgatory not your intention in citing this passage? That's the one RCs usually cite, incorrectly, for a defense of purgatory.
Hence the word IF.
That's true--- but that's Catholic doctrine. At your particular judgment, at the moment of death, your fate is sealed: either Heaven or Hell, irrevocably. (1 Cor 3:15) Some will still have to suffer loss: "but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire." (God's child — though he suffer for a time---- will still be saved even though he has to pass through the fire of purification and discipline, says Paul.)
You continue to destroy the RC defense of RCs don't worship Mary. Roman Catholics "adore" Mary when they pray TO her.
You might want to read all three accounts.
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