Posted on 02/06/2020 9:17:14 AM PST by Salvation
However, in his writings he elevates Mary to Christ and/or the Spirit; and a good argument could be made he places Mary over Christ in some cases.
Montfort has done what the OT Jews did...they allowed an encroachment of error and mixed it with Truth.
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So while Montfort writes this, "We are given no other name under heaven by which we can be saved.", he then turns around and writes this.
Saint Anselm says, ‘that as it is impossible for one who is not devout to Mary, and consequently not protected by her, to be saved, so is it impossible for one who recommends himself to her, and consequently is beloved by her, to be lost.’ Saint Antoninus repeats the same thing, and almost in the same words: ‘As it is impossible for those from whom Mary turns her eyes of mercy, to be saved, so also are those towards whom she turns these eyes, and for whom she prays, necessarily saved and glorified.’ Consequently the clients of Mary will necessarily be saved. (p184) The Glories of Mary.
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| The Glories of Mary | Romans 10:5-13 NASB | |
| Saint Anselm says, ‘that as it is impossible for one who is not devout to Mary, and consequently not protected by her, to be saved, so is it impossible for one who recommends himself to her, and consequently is beloved by her, to be lost.’ Saint Antoninus repeats the same thing, and almost in the same words: ‘As it is impossible for those from whom Mary turns her eyes of mercy, to be saved, so also are those towards whom she turns these eyes, and for whom she prays, necessarily saved and glorified.’ Consequently the clients of Mary will necessarily be saved. (p184) | 5For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down),7or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BEDISAPPOINTED.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”. |
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| But, on the other hand, Mary says in the words applied to her by the church, “He that hearkeneth to me shall not be confounded;’ that is to say, he who hearkeneth to what I say shall not be lost. On which Saint Bonaventure says, ‘O Lady, he who honours thee will be far from damnation.’ And this will still be the case, Saint Hilary observes, even should the person, during the past time have greatly offended God. ‘However great a sinner he may have been,’ says the saint, ‘if he shews himself devout to Mary he will never perish.’(p185) | 14“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. |
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Bible quotes from NASB
RCC position on Mary from The Glories of Mary, translated from the Italian of St Alphonsus De; Liguori, Founder of the Congregation of the Most Holy Redeemer, by A Father of the Same Congregation LONDON: Printed for the Redemptorist Fathers, St Mary’s, Clapham, Surrey; to be had of J.J. Wallwork, 42, Great Marlborough Street, Regent Street, and of all Booksellers. MDCCCLII p184-185.
https://books.google.com/books?id=7uwCAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA145&lpg=PA145&dq=All+power+is+given+to+thee+in+Heaven+and+on+earth,+so+that+at+the+command+of+Mary+all+obey-even+God&source=bl&ots=myZ-FaiMh7&sig=ivbaVW-mCAErqzlDyoebpOj0EJE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjrmYK1rcTYAhVPtFMKHVeRBdAQ6AEIOzAG#v=twopage&q&f=false
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| The Glories of Mary | Scripture | |
| Lady in heaven, we have but one advocate, and that is thyself, and thou alone art truly loving and solicitous for our salvation. | 5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 1 Tim 2:5 |
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| But that she is so, is evident from the fact, that whatever the Mother asks for, the Son never denies her; and this was revealed to Saint Bridget. | 14This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 1 Jn 5:14 |
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| Saint Anselm says, ‘that as it is impossible for one who is not devout to Mary, and consequently not protected by her, to be saved,. | 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. Jn 10:27-28 |
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| St. Bonaventure notes: In thee, O Lady, have I placed all my hopes; and thus I confidently trust that I shall never be lost, but praise and love thee for ever in heaven | 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; Rm 10:9 |
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| Saint Andrew of Crete, calls Mary, ‘a pledge, a security for our reconciliation with God.’, | who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, … Eph 1:13-14 |
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Alphonsus de Liguori, The Glories of Mary, (Tucker, London, 1868), 249. Liguori, 190. Ibid, 146. Ibid, 84. Ibid, 170.
My error on the authors.
It does illustrate though the same issue of the worship of Mary and how she has been elevated in Roman Catholicism to a position equal to or greater than Christ.
https://www.ecatholic2000.com/montfort/true/devotion.shtml#__RefHeading___Toc332751738
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There is NOTHING in the NT about being consecrated to both Mary and Jesus. NOTHING.
This is but one passage from True Devotion to Mary by Montfort.
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Note this quote from JP II. It's not the Scriptures that's a decisive turning point....it's Montfort's book about falsely needing to be devoted to Mary.
Blessed Pope John Paul II (1978–2005): “The reading of this book was a decisive turning-point in my life. I say ‘turning-point,’ but in fact it was a long inner journey . . . This ‘perfect devotion’ is indispensable to anyone who means to give himself without reserve to Christ and to the work of redemption.” . . .“It is from Montfort that I have taken my motto: ‘Totus tuus’ (‘I am all thine’). Someday I’ll have to tell you Montfortians how I discovered De Montfort’s Treatise on True Devotion to Mary, and how often I had to reread it to understand it.”
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Pope Paul VI (1963–78): “We are convinced without any doubt that devotion to Our Lady is essentially joined with devotion to Christ, that it assures a firmness of conviction to faith in Him and in His Church, a vital adherence to Him and to His Church which, without devotion to Mary, would be impoverished and compromised.”
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Yet somehow, in all of the New Testament writings we have, not one word....not one, was ever written about the necessity of being devoted to Mary. Not one.
This is the error, and possibly the biggest error of Roman Catholicism, is this teaching that devotion to Mary is essential to Christ.
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The NT is crystal clear....we are to have faith in Christ and Christ alone. No one else can save us. Only Christ.
I am not here to defend Montfort, Anselm, or any of the others you quote. One can legitimately argue that they put too much emphasis on Mary.
But by quoting only what the authors write about Mary, one overlooks what they write about Mary’s relationship with God. They write that she is in full communion with God, but as far as I can tell, every one of these writers put Mary in a subservient position under God. God is divine; Mary is a creature who is given special graces by God.
Can you show where any of these authors write that Mary is on a par with God or above God? Or that any of the things they attribute to Mary are things that belong to her without the grace of God?
We consecrate ourselves at one and the same time to the most holy Virgin and to Jesus Christ:...
And previously noted...no NT admonitions to be devoted to Mary AND Jesus.
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Can you show where any of these authors write that Mary is on a par with God or above God?
The same do I hope for myself, O my own most holy Queen; and therefore I will always repeat the words of Saint Bonaventure, ‘In thee, O Lady, have I placed all my hopes; and thus I confidently trust that I shall never be lost, but praise and love thee for ever in heaven.’ (Glories of Mary)
Contrast to His reply to Thomas.... 6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. John 14:6 NASB
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However, he mixes in error with Truth with is error.
The OT Jews did the same thing. They added to the worship of God the created thing.
Rome has done likewise with Mary. Just because Mary, a created being, is "on our side", doesn't warrant all of the false writings attributed to her by Rome.
rwa265 asked for proof of how Mary has been elevated to a par with God.
I have provided said requested proof in my #65 post....among others.
Neither one of your excerpts state that Mary is on a par with or above Jesus or that the things attributed to Mary are things that belong to her without the grace of God. From what I have gleaned from perusing the writings, both are written with the understanding that Jesus is superior to Mary.
Regarding John 14:6, I think you would be okay with the words in the refrain of our closing hymn at church today.
Lead Me, Lord by John D. Becker:
Lead me, Lord, lead me, Lord,
by the light of truth
to seek and to find the narrow way.
Be my way; be my truth;
be my life, my Lord,
and lead me, Lord, today.
If you don't have that in mind, everything we say about Mary (or any other holy person) would be false.
If you DO have that in mind, everything we say about Mary and other holy persons, is true.
I must take my share of the blame if I have not adequately explained the human honor vs divine honor thing. It's not just a matter of degree: it's a difference in kind. And that's the key to understanding terms which are used in related-but-not-identical ways in different contexts.
For instance "I love hamburgers"is not the same as "I love my kids" and not the same as "I love my God."
"Your hat is adorable" is not the same as "Your baby is adorable" and not the same as "The Creator of Heaven and Earth is adorable".
Eve (the first Biblical person to be called a "help", Gen. 2:18) is not identical to Mary as a "help," and infinitely less than the Holy Spirit as a "help."
If you get the gist of this, the nonsense of Mary as co- God, substitute for God or rival to God, disappears from consideration entirely.
I strongly recommend using the BibleGateway search function to get a load of who-all is called, for instance, a "help" or "helper" in the Bible.
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IF that's not on par with placing our hope in Christ saving us....
You continue to wrongly assert I do not understand Roman Catholicism's terms. I do understand them and I reject them.
When Rome calls Mary the following, the meaning of the terms are clear.
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| Second Vatican Council (Lumen gentium ## 61-62) For this reason, the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of: | New Testament |
| Advocate | My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 1 John 2:1-2 NASB |
| Auxiliatrix [Latin for helper, aide] | "But the Helper [paraklétos, GR, (a) an advocate, intercessor, (b) a consoler, comforter, helper, (c) Paraclete.], the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. John 14:26 NASB |
| Mediatrix [earliest reference is 4th century as applied to Mary] | 5For there is one God, and one mediator [mesités, GR, properly, an arbitrator ("mediator"), guaranteeing the performance of all the terms stipulated in a covenant (agreement). In the NT this is only applied to Christ] also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. 1 Timothy 2:5-6 NASB |
Bible quotes from NASB
RCC position on Mary from https://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm
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When Ligouri writes the following what other conclusion can there be except it is now Mary, not the Spirit, who is a pledge of our security one can only conclude the Spirit has been replaced by Mary:
| The Glories of Mary | Ephesians 1:13-14 | |
| 1) Saint Andrew of Crete, calls Mary, ‘a pledge, a security for our reconciliation with God.’, That is, that God goes about seeking for reconciliation with sinners by pardoning them; and in order that they may not doubt of their forgiveness, He has given them Mary as a pledge of it, and therefore he exclaims, ‘Hail, O peace of God with men. | 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. |
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Let's understand the context of your example.
Eve is given exclusively to Adam. Now, it would be ok to expand this and say that woman as a general term, were given to man as a help.
The Spirit exclusively is given to the believer.
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But again the real issue here is Mary is NEVER given as a helper to believers in the New Testament.
Recall, Roman Catholic writings indicate that Mary is able to perfectly hear and answer the prayers of each and every Roman Catholic....all 1.3 billion, from every language group and the nuances of each prayer.
Elsie has done the math on this.
1.3 billion Catholics/86,400 seconds in a day = 15,197 prayers a second.
If that does not place her on a par with the Spirit then the RC is deluding themselves.
Scripture accords this to the Spirit in Romans 8:26-27
26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. Romans 8:26-27 NASB
Recall there is a fifth Marian dogma awaiting approval to call Mary Co-Redemptrix. It has not passed....yet. Roman Catholics go to great lengths, as you have, to get away from the real meaning of these kinds of titles.
It is in the context of Jesus putting Mary on a par with Him. The writers believe that is something Jesus does in recognition of Mary putting her full trust in Him.
My objective is to help you improve your aim, Ealgeone. If you want to criticize Catholic writings, there are plenty of good targets. But I wish you would try to make a better effort to understand what these writers are postulating so that you don’t continually post inaccurate statements about their writings.
Peace,
Rich
From their perspective....not that of the New Testament.
But I wish you would try to make a better effort to understand what these writers are postulating so that you don’t continually post inaccurate statements about their writings.
Yet I've posted no errors regarding their writings.
Everything I have written is correct.
I see the gulf between us is vast and unconquerable on this issue.
Yet I’ve posted no errors regarding their writings.
Everything I have written is correct.
I see the gulf between us is vast and unconquerable on this issue.
Much of what you have written is correct, but it is inaccurate to write that Mary has been elevated in Roman Catholicism to a position equal to or greater than Christ.
Everything written about Mary is in the context of her total submission to the power and glory of God.
In the words of Montfort:
14. I AVOW, with all the Church, that Mary, being but a mere creature that has come from the hands of the Most High, is, in comparison with His Infinite Majesty, less than an atom; or rather she is nothing at all. “He who is,” and thus by consequence that grand Lord, always independent and sufficient to Himself, never had, and has not now, any absolute need of the Holy Virgin for the accomplishment of His will and for the manifestation of His glory.
Attributions of tremendous abilities not accorded to her in Scripture, complete devotion to her, etc....yet then attempts to downplay his writings.
Our faith and salvation are either in Christ and Christ alone, or the entire NT is incorrect.
I totally agree that our faith and salvation are in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ alone.
These writers do say amazing things about Mary that are not accorded to her in Scripture. But it is always in the context of these things being through the will of God; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Nowhere do they say that Mary can do anything without God.
They also recommend complete devotion to her. But it is always in connection with complete devotion to God. Nowhere do they write that devotion to Mary alone is sufficient; it is always in relation to our complete devotion to God.
I have no problem with your disagreeing with what they actually write about Mary. Some of it is over the top for me. But it is totally inaccurate to say that these writers are putting forth a position that Mary is on a par with or greater than God. They all agree that Mary cannot do anything without God.
Do you know anything about his biographies? There are a lot. Which would be the best one, in your opinion?
Actually, I was not familiar with Montfort until I saw posts from our FReeper friends quoting excerpts from his writings.
I can direct you to a couple of web sites that might be helpful.
https://www.ecatholic2000.com/montfort/true/devotion.shtml#__RefHeading___Toc332751786
https://www.montfortpublications.com/category_s/1822.htm
They maintain one cannot be saved and not be devoted to Mary. It is argued one can only come to Christ IF Mary wills it.
All of that contradicts Scripture.
IF it were essential why did Jesus not make note of that at some point in His ministry?
Why do we not have anything from Paul on this?
It's simple. Because they didn't teach it.
I find it amazing that no where in the NT is any of this ever noted to be essential for salvation.
None of these types of writings were considered as canon at Trent when Rome declared its canon....and there were plenty available.
When Rome says Mary can hear, understand and handle ALL of the prayers of the estimated 1.3 billion Roman Catholics they've put her on the same level as the Spirit.
I don't see how anyone could come away with any other conclusion.
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