Posted on 05/08/2020 4:37:58 PM PDT by pastorbillrandles
Here is a video just for folks like you. Enjoy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZBoSaG4-KY
“Please provide chapter and verse for no Christians will endure life on earth when god pours out his wrath, and what/where in the timeline you consider the wrath occurring - during the great tribulation?”
God did not appoint believers to experience His wrath, and it is specifically Christ’s return that spares us from God’s wrath:
1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 (NKJV)
For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
1 Thessalonians 5:2-11 (NKJV)
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.
As the above passage indicates, God’s wrath is poured out in the Day of the Lord, a time that begins with the return of Christ. For believers, the Day of the Christ (the Lord) is a day of salvation, but for the world it is a day of wrath.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-2:4 (NKJV)
It is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
From this passage we ascertain that Christ’s return marks the onset of the Day of the Lord time period; and with it the outpouring of fiery destruction upon the inhabitants of earth for their persecution of believers. This is NOT the mark of the beginning of Daniel’s seventieth week or the Great Tribulation.
The beginning of Daniel’s seventieth week is marked by the enacting of a seven-year peace treaty to protect Israel. The beginning of the Great Tribulation is marked by the breaking of this treaty exactly half way through when antichrist is revealed by his act of desecrating the third temple, as described in the passage above, also.
Note that this event must take place BEFORE the Day of Christ, which means it will take place BEFORE Christ’s return.
There is another significant demarkation between these time periods. There will be signs in the Heavens, particularly the darkening of the sun, moon, and stars, that simultaneously marks the end of the Great Tribulation and the imminence of the arrival of the Day of the Lord. It occurs AFTER the Great Tribulation but BEFORE the Day of the Lord:
Joel 2:31 (NKJV)
The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
Matthew 24:29 (NKJV)
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
A careful examination of the above passage reveals that these signs in the Heavens come AFTER the abomination of desolation (v. 15) and BEFORE the return of Christ (v. 30).
Ah,
You see the problem. Who hasn’t been contaminated by feminism, globalism, the homosexual agenda, socialism? Who hasn’t adopted what are heretical concepts? Good luck searching.
Without true doctrine or traditions and after all the splitting of the church (no one herding the cats anymore), Christianity became the Baskin and Robbins of religion. Actually Baskin and Robbins only has about 36 flavors or so at a store usually, Christianity today in the US alone is about 60 main stream flavors.
Sorry- I can’t tell you, I wish I could.
The word “Purgatory” is not found in the bible either.
So what IS the true doctrine you trust? If you trust NONE of them are you saying that God has put us here and given us NO TRUTH in order for us to find Him?
Ah, yes, Andy Woods, probably the best you “folks” can come up with for your side. I like what he has to say about the millennial, but not so on his “reasons for a prettrib rapture”...of course.
The writers I mentioned from early church history lived almost two thousand years closer to the apostles than Andy Woods....and they never heard of such a thing as a pretrib rapture. How is it you “folks” claim to know more about it than they?
Don’t count on being “gone” (raptured) before trouble sets in.
I can not argue with that. I think you are right.
From my limited knowledge, the idea of the big organized church started when Rome adopted Christianity (~300 AD) and all these temples in Rome were converted. Unemployed priest from the temple of Jupiter becomes Christian priest (LOL)... Why many of the early churches are Roman style basilica’s...
Heck, early Christians were persecuted and hardly wanted to advertise their faith.
Thanks for sharing. I always find your messages to be well-grounded in scripture and encouraging.
I believe that date-setting is an error that has repeatedly led to catastrophe over the years, however there are several scriptures that provide a correct perspective as to what we, as believers, should expect regarding the timing of Christ’s return.
We are to watch expectantly:
Matthew 24:42 (NKJV)
Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.
We are to wait patiently:
James 5:7 (NKJV)
Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain.
1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 (NKJV)
For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
Those who watch expectantly and wait patiently will not be surprised at His return, while those who do not will be taken by surprise:
1 Thessalonians 5:2-4 (NKJV)
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
Revelation 3:3 (NKJV)
Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.
Believers can and should see the Day of Christ’s return approaching:
Hebrews 10:25 (NKJV)
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
I believe that being able to see the Day approaching requires recognizing specific signs that Jesus told us to watch for. These are contained in the Olivet discourse and match the Heavenly vision of the seven seals of Revelation being broken in chapters 5-7. If Christ’s return is currently imminent (i.e. could happen at any moment), then there is no need for signs. However, when these signs do occur, then we are told to “look up for your redemption draws near.”
My belief is that these signs occur during the “beginning of sorrows” and the Great Tribulation, but occur BEFORE the Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath.
Revelation 6:17 (NKJV)
For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?
There were two different early churches. One that Paul established based purely on the Gospel of Grace of God and another church which took those Jewish traditions and doctrines and pretzled them into a gospel of works for salvation. They both exist to this day. And they are easy to use tify.
And if honest, the concept of purgatory is not supported in scripture. In fact, the opposite is what The word of God gives us. ‘There is therefore now (NOW) no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.’ “For you brethren are not appointed unto wrath but to obtain salvation.’ ‘To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.’ etc, to include the message inferred with 1 Thess 4:13-17, where those who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord are caught up to Him in the air, not muddling through a mythical purgatory first.
You must have missed where Adny Woods cites the Pseudo-Ephriam, and other written documents from the time of the ECF where a departure is cited coming before the wrath begins. Wouldn’t want to remember anything that doesn’t support your presime, eh?
I had an individual tell me a few weeks ago that nowhere in the Bible are Christians referred to as the “Bride of Christ.” I believe it began when all of the churches ceased having services and I said something to the effect that the church is just a building but we as believers are the church itself.
So many are unable to discern when Jesus or the Apostles use metaphor and simile, yet these same people want to take a strong metaphor as not metaphor but a dictate to eat the blood and flesh of Christ, when they are shown again and again that such a meaning is contrary to the many times repeated command from GOD to NOT eat the blood. If Jesus fed His flesh and blood, His real flesh and real blood to these Jewish men prior to the time dying on the Cross, JESUS would be contradicting HIS OWN COMMAND regarding the blood.
The same can be said for the Church being built on Petra or Petros.
I’ve read that, too. The Church the Body of Christ is referred to by Paul as The One New MAN. That is true.
“We can conclude from the survey of Ante-Nicene Fathers writings [the ECF] that the early church was explicitly posttribulational. Whenever the millennial appears in the early literature, the coming of the Millennial Kingdom, not a rapture preceding by several years, appears as the hope of the church.
WE DISCOVER NOT EVEN A PASSING REFFERENCE TO, MUCH LESS A REFUTATION OF, ANY WHO BELIEVED OTHERWISE. Every Ante-Nicene writer who touches in any detail upon the tribulation, resurrection, rapture, or second coming displays a posttribulational expectation.”
The Church and the Tribulation,” Robert Gundry
Gundry has written an excellent rebuttal about the grasping-at-straws Pseudo-Ephraim thing. “Pseudo” means “false,” you know.
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