Posted on 05/20/2020 3:50:15 PM PDT by ebb tide
The Orthodox say she is pure and sinless, they just don’t define when. They haven’t gotten around to saying when. I could find some bad Catholics that agree with you, you can always find someone to agree with you, problem is they lack authority.
Scripture is clear that we, as St. Paul says we must work out our salvation in fear and trembling. Thus we are not saved until we make it to Heaven. Yet, Mary said “God my Savior”, because she was already saved from sin by God. It’s in scripture if you care to look.
Well, I can see your ability to have a grown up discussion is limited. Have a good night.
Scripture says that exactly nowhere. It's man made Protestant tradition nullifying the word of God again!.
as opposed to the man made catholic traditions that you guys hold equal to scripture? The only logical interpretation of the woman clothed in the sun is Isreal
It's not Catholic teaching that Mary was preserved from ALL consequences of original sin. She suffered, she got old, and she died. Her son also suffered and died, you'll recall. He wasn't preserved from all of the bad consequences of original sin, either. As usual, you're shooting blanks.
As another poster pointed out, don't fall into the ridiculous trap of asserting that Catholic doctrine can be disproven by an appeal "to the Greek" in areas where we are in total agreement with the Greeks themselves, unless you want to amuse us by trying to claim that the Greeks don't actually know their own language.
Mary indeed suffered the consequences of original sin as she was a winner. Christ was totally pure and sinless but took on our sin and suffered its consequences willingly in our place. Big difference
[14] Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. - Thess 2:14
[14] Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. - Thess 2:14
[14] Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. - Thess 2:14
2Tim3;16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness
Since we don’t know the tradition Paul taught and Revelation wasn’t even written by then I will stick with Scripture not with what the Roman Church made up later and cherry picks a verse to try to cover
What has Paul been instructing the Thessalonians to do in this letter?
Whoa....that's a pretty big difference than how Rome has taught on this issue.
But it really doesn't matter as it contradicts Scripture. Something Rome says their dogmas don't do yet they do.
All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23
I could find some bad Catholics that agree with you, you can always find someone to agree with you, problem is they lack authority
I can show you several of the ECFs Romans hold near and dear that say Mary committed sin. Are they in error? Do they lack "authority"?
Scripture is clear that we, as St. Paul says we must work out our salvation in fear and trembling. Thus we are not saved until we make it to Heaven. Yet, Mary said “God my Savior”, because she was already saved from sin by God. It’s in scripture if you care to look.
Our salvation in Christ is secure even while we are alive on earth. But that may be another topic for conversation.
Mary recognized she was a sinner when she declared "God my Savior".
IF you're going to argue Mary was sinless because of her statement then you'll have to allow David was sinless as well for he said:
And David spoke the words of this song to the Lord in the day that the Lord delivered him from the hand of all his enemies and from the hand of Saul. He said, “The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer; My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and my refuge; My savior, You save me from violence. 1 Samuel 22:1-3
Further you'd have to allow sinlessness for everyone who calls God their Savior.
You've tied yourself up in knots by departing from Scripture and relying upon Rome's "traditions".
Scripture is clear that we, as St. Paul says we must work out our salvation in fear and trembling. Thus we are not saved until we make it to Heaven.
1) Salvation is a gift. If it isn’t, you have to discount a lot of what God says. The Bible is VERY CLEAR on the gift.
When God gives a gift, does he threaten to take it back?
Can you earn a gift?
If you think you have to earn salvation, it is not a gift and you have not received it.
2)The “work out” is to is not to earn it but to live it. To exercise you faith and salvation. When you get a good gift, you use it.
3) The “fear and trembling” is recognizing who God is, His Holiness. Do we truly understand how valuable the gift is and what it cost?
4) There is a religion that lives in constant fear of not going to their heaven. They are called Muslims.
I'd add the RCC to that list.
The more I learn about the false dogma of the Immaculate Conception the more I realize just how far Rome has veered from Scripture.
And I also see the dogmatic gymnastics the Roman Catholic has to resort to justify their position on this issue...among others.
Jesus was not preserved from all the consequences of "original sin"?? Wasn't one of the primary reasons Rome cited for Mary having to be sinless was that Jesus couldn't be born to a sinful woman??
You may recall that Jesus voluntarily died on the Cross, yet overcame death. He led a perfect life as He was sinless though tempted in ways we were and in some ways we haven't been.
No one else can make that claim.
Rome claims Mary was free from every "stain and fault" of original sin and "debilities" but them claim she wasn't exempt from the temporal penalties which would include death.
Revelation 12:1-2 contradicts this claim of being free of every "stain and fault" of original sin based on Genesis 3:16.
Rome is splitting some hairs here....and poorly too I might add.
Scripture in both the OT and NT clearly states all created beings have sinned.
For the Roman Catholic dogma of the IC to be true, Scripture has to be negated on this issue.
As another poster pointed out, don't fall into the ridiculous trap of asserting that Catholic doctrine can be disproven by an appeal "to the Greek" in areas where we are in total agreement with the Greeks themselves, unless you want to amuse us by trying to claim that the Greeks don't actually know their own language.
Roman Catholic doctrine can be proven false by an appeal to Scripture...whether it be Greek or English.
As the article I linked to notes, Rome and the EO are in sharp disagreement on issues very critical to Roman Catholicism.
And yes, the Greek is very helpful in understanding the NT for those who've studied the language.
There are very easy counter arguments to every point about Mary here:
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/hail-mary-conceived-without-sin
If you want to make “all” include every human then you have to put Jesus in that category, since he is truly God and truly man.
As for using scripture to attack the Catholic faith that is ridiculous. The Bible came out of the Church, not the other way around, and there was no compilation of approved books for her first 300 years. Coming back 1500 after the birth of Jesus and after Martin Luther cut 7 books out and trying to tell us what the Bible says is not intellectually honest.
And if I would you I wouldn’t be so quick to degrade the mother of our Lord to just a womb with a body around it. Remember that all will call her blessed-even the Protestant denominations.
And indeed the sanctified, graced, blessed, virtuous, Spirit-filled mother (as concerning the flesh: cf. Rm. 9:5) of the Lord Jesus was/is holy, although the word in Luke 1:48 is not the word for holy, but is makarizō = blessed, fortunate. The word for "holy" - from the Holy Spirit to the first born to prophets and apostles and to all believers. is "hagios" - sacred. There is no word used of Mary that describes her as uniquely holy - including (as has been shown) "kecharitomene", though she is highly favoured (graced) and blessed among women, (Luke 1:28,42) which Jael the wife of Heber was (Jdg 5:24) as a mother, though less so.
When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” — John 19
Which is wonderful. What better person to care for mom than the apostle of love, who apparently outlived all the rest. A better choice than Peter or brethren of the Lord. And which does not equate to perpetual Marian virginity, which is not warranted (see past response here, by the grace of ) to save time and typing.
“And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars... And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.” — Revelation 12
Which is not a reference to Mary, despite what Catholics can only wish it did. But again see past response here to save time and typing, and enable me to get back to planting tomatoes as the weather is finally getting somewhat warm, thanks be to God.
That’s the funny thing about most Catholics.
They have their talking points, but have no idea what to do when challenged on them.
And so typically resort to wild attacks or the argument from tradition fallacy. Which is in itself false because the very same church fathers they appeal to ALSO contradict Roman doctrines.
It’s the same thing as leftists screaming slogans online, nothing more.
I already call Mary blessed; she had the blessing of being around Jesus and the early church for her entire life.
But she’s still a sinner.
Mary herself confessed to being a sinner when she brought a SIN offering before God.
To claim that Mary is sinless is to claim that Mary is a liar.
And being a liar... makes Mary a sinner.
It is literally impossible for Mary to be sinless unless you choose to reject the same book of the Bible that you’re using as your evidence.
So where did Mary literally say “I’m a sinner?”
Nowhere.
The angel Gabriel said to her at the Incarnation “Hail Mary, full of grace!”
Full.
And a perfect angelic being praising a creation is nowhere else in the Bible, not is calling anyone full of grace. That should give any Protestant who degrades her to just a womb, especially since Jesus did his first miracle at her request, something to think about.
So where did Mary literally say “I’m a sinner?”
***
Luke 2: 24. That’s where she literally confessed that she’s a sinner. Perhaps you need to learn more than Catholic talking points.
As for ‘full of grace,’ grace literally means UNDESERVED favor.
So if Mary is ‘full of grace’ there must be a LOT of sin there to need grace for.
Educate yourself about what words actually mean, LOL.
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