Posted on 05/27/2020 8:16:28 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
It doesn’t really get to the heart of the conflict.
Whether or not to open a church or anything else is a public decision, because the individual is not the only one affected.
We have a lot of laws in our states and our nation, and all of them are public matters. They are all for the common good. But this is not a problem of law at the present time.
Our problem right now is whether we can move from private decision to public decision on the matter of corona and any other similar decisions that come along in he future. People differ on this, and that is why all the conflict.
It really is unfortunate that the Constitution has been brought into it. It has to be a voluntary effort on everyone’s part, a spirit of self-sacrifice for the good of others, not obedience to a law. At least we hope it doesn’t get to that point. If you voluntarily do something for the good of others (as well as yourself maybe), your rights haven’t been touched.
Compounding the problem today, the virus is not the real fire but it’s the spiritual warfare that is taking place. Different members and churches as a whole are listening to differing news sources, few people are actually researching on their own. Much of the news is misleading by design to drive this wedge in the church.
Add to the issue is that most of the big churches in the USA have worship services run by millennials. Many worship teams at the larger churches are all under 30 and their source of news is just what ever yahoo or google wants to push as trending on the top of their favorite app as to melt the snowflakes.
Few to none of the mellennials are actually research any of the facts, for example most deaths are older people whom can’t get out to go to church anyhow, and a good percentage died in nursing homes, where even without the virus half of all nursing home patients will die within 5 months. Take away nursing home deaths from the stats and also all the extra deaths that are being added from car crash victims or gun shots that killed people with the virus, the virus death stats are no worse than a flu.
As churches re-open it is the millennial worship team leaders ironically that are leading the charge to for people not to sing! The diabolical spiritual warfare going on now on churches is astounding, there are worship leaders who think their new commission instead of encouraging singing is to keep people from singing !
Its the news sources people,read or don't read as is the case by which is driving churches to split on this issue. Take for example, just today a study found that a supermarket is a least likely place were the virus is being spread based on the numbers of fatalities of the workers, owed to clean practices and people not spending all day confined inside closely like nursing homes.. How many church leaders will read this study today and apply it to their own assessment of risk?.. perhaps zero for those listening to CNN...
Yeah, the mask thing is disgusting. I can’t talk to someone wearing one of those things.
There is a big difference between all members of a congregation voluntarily deciding to stay home and shelter from the virus, and having the local police force stationed at the church to make darn sure no one can worship there.
We have the First Amendment so that the second option cannot happen. Yet it did.
Rights are rights. You cannot allow them to be thrown away just because the government “has a good reason”. But, if people voluntarily decide not to exercise their rights for a time, that’s different. But the only thing I care about is the improper forced closing of churches by the government. It’s just wrong.
Another reason:
Some people of great faith are eager to resume daily Mass and the reception of the Holy Eucharist (even with no cup). Which I think will happen.
**Shouldn’t it up to the local bishop(s)??**
It is. But the local bishops also need to adhere to the state’s civil law.
We have some who think they should follow their view of the Bible, that God commands corporate worship.
There may be some lingering hard feelings, brought to the surface by the stress of the issue.
Nothing in the article speaks to faith. Nothing. The article is pure secular reasoning.
The local health department tried to shut our parking lot services down. They only succeeded in pissing off the congregation. Before Mother’s Day the pastor had decided with deep prayer and the deacons we were having in person services with the social distancing and members with underlying issues having their choice of parking lot radio, Facebook streaming or in person attendance. This decision was made 10 or so days before king Andy of KY had decreed in person services could be held in HIS state.
The pastor knew there maybe be ramifications but the government’s proclamations and predictions were wrong and not just slightly wrong. The Friday or Saturday before the pastor said he was wrestling with the devil and fear of what the government might do but decided, we are going forward and having services. He was preparing a group call to members and a Facebook announcement to the members and I got a Twitter notification that a federal judge ruled that king Andy’s church closure proclamation was unconstitutional and texted the pastor the link. He said it was heart warming to know he-we still had Rights recognized in our country and vowed no more closures by the government, we’re done with that.
We’re into a couple of weeks of in person services with social distancing and people are using common sense and if they’re ill or have underlying conditions are not coming in person. Amazing, adults taking responsibility for their lives and making their own decisions!
Even in this thread, you see the fear of people. Our hope is not in government or medicine, if you are a Christian, your hope should be in the Lord. Period.
How weak we are - at the slightest indication of a problem, the church folds like a cheap suit. The early Christians were willing to DIE for the faith. We cannot even be inconvenienced or perhaps made sick.
Does anybody recall the scripture “do not forsake the assembling together” (Heb 10:25). Yes we are to obey the civil authorities, but NOT when it is in direct contradiction to the word of God.
If the government outlawed religious meetings at any time - should Christians obey that order too?
The people aren’t being allowed to assemble or do many of the things God requires of us. He doesn’t require a building (although inclement weather and lack of bathrooms is problematic). But he does require the gathering, communion, corporate prayer and praise, the physical present preaching, communion, etc)
No, there are times when local bishops should NOT adhere.
No mask and no social distancing. That’s my thought too. I won’t comply with their societal conditioning. I love God. I pray every day and confess my sins, but I won’t be a part of this “new normal”. My church is limiting the number of participants in the church at one time, masks are required, and no singing. I’m sure the pastor will be wearing gloves too. I’ll see if they post the service on Youtube to confirm.
Forced closings will occur eventually if we do not do it voluntarily. I’m not trying to foment more fear. I would just like to see more people voluntarily acting in the public good. I think it’s a good thing that can come out of this.
No scolding or shaming, just a silent agreement to do one’s tiny part in protecting all.
Having listened to my neighbors and other young parents, is that many of these parents both hold full-time jobs and when they attend church, expect and even demand child care on Sunday as well!
So long as they would be expected to sit with their own children for 10-20 minutes, is an activity they will avoid: witness parents with young children in restaurants, their kids run amuck throughout the restaurant while their parents visit with their other friends while no parent even notices what their kids are doing!
How hard to follow civil authorities? My church has not shut down, been opened since the beginning. Your comment reminds me of lukewarm Christians...follow civil authorities???,,,answer,,,, that is why the Bible was taken out of schools, abortion was legalized and perpetuated, gay marriage now the law of the land. World wars never shutdown churches as places of refuge but a Covid flu with 0.2 percent mortality rate does? Weak Christians, fake Christians, Luke warm Christians. Listen to the authorities and be afraid or listen to God and have no fear? Who will you follow?
Romans 13 1-7
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
1 Peter 2:13-17
13 Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution,[a] whether it be to the emperor[b] as supreme, 14 or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. 15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people.
16 Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants[c] of God. 17 Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.
Berean- how correct you are. This low mortality flu has exposed lukewarm Christians for what they are- weak Christians. 3 out of 5 of our local Christian churches closed out of fear, I wonder how many will not be around in the near future. The Good Lord has a way of disbanding weak, lukewarm ineffective Churches, make no mistake this flu is weeding out the weak from the strong. The best we can do is pray for the weak Christians to truly embrace God’s word and promises in full. Become strong. Christians are commanded to have no fear- fear is ultimately distrusting God’s word. Biblical history has many examples of what happened to all those weak churches, and how they became weak- fear.
Last time I checked, the American flag has 50 stars and not the Union Jack in the canton, as do the Australian and New Zealand flags and, before 1965, the Canadian flag (some provinces retained British symbolism in their flags). The Founding Fathers, who were mostly Christians, recognized that when the ruling authority violates God given rights, there is justification. and indeed a duty, to resist. Samuel Rutherford, a Puritan authorand familiar to the Founders, wrote a book, Lex Rex, that noted that the law. and not a ruler, was king. One battle cry of the men of 1776 was “No king but King Jesus”. Romans 13 is too often used to justify craven surrender to government abuses. A case in point: the “German Christians” in the Third Reich.
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