Posted on 11/23/2022 6:29:47 AM PST by Roman_War_Criminal
Yes, there is a HUGE difference between being caught in sin and rejecting Jesus after believing! My point is to reject “once saved, always saved” because it seems clear that we CAN turn away from God after believing.
Of course, what makes it doubly hard is the lying sinfulness of the human heart! I am 100% certain, at a minimum, that there are people who now claim to be believers and who certainly SEEM to be believers who will reject Jesus later and then die unsaved. One can argue if they ever truly believed or not, but I think we should take all the warnings to stay faithful to the end seriously.
God knows who has and has not truly believed, but I am certain some think they believe and don’t because their own heart is lying to them and to others, while God is not fooled.
Tough subject and I know there are scriptures which seem to take both sides. Maybe that means God doesn’t feel the need to explain everything to us in detail in this life - and in the next, we will see God clearly and trust Him utterly, without questions or concerns!
You’re right, like lawyers both sides can easily be argued with Scripture to back it up - depending on the context.
Charles Templeton might come to mind for the scenario you lay out. Billy Graham’s old buddy who rejected Christ later.
Please elaborate on your quote here:
“but I am certain some think they believe and don’t because their own heart is lying to them and to others, while God is not fooled.”
Yes, the heart is evil, deceptive, and wicked - but you either believe it or not. Even children believe. The folks that later reject it, never believed to begin with IMHO.
I agree, but those who don't, have to use bits and pieces from various NT letters to make their case.
rejecting Jesus after believing! My point is to reject “once saved, always saved” because it seems clear that we CAN turn away from God after believing.
/\
Explain 1 Corinthians 5:5
I’ll wait.
Then they aren't really 'rejecting' it.
Explain Hebrews 6. I’ll wait.
However, 1 Cor 5 is NOT discussing someone who has believed and then rejected God. He is someone committing a vile sin. As is often the case, Barnes Notes has a good comment:
“For the destruction of the flesh - We may observe here:
(1) That this does not mean that the man was to die under the infliction of the censure, for the object was to recover him; and it is evident that, whatever he suffered as the consequence of this, he survived it, and Paul again instructed the Corinthians to admit him to their fellowship, 2 Corinthians 2:7.”
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/bnb/1-corinthians-5.html
David did not lament the loss of his salvation after adultery and murder in Psalm 51, but the loss of Joy of his salvation.
Step #1 - they say they “believe” at Rick Warren Spouse Camp
Step #2 - life becomes miserable, God doesn’t “help” them
Step #3 - they say “well I don’t really believe in God”
I think all of us can recall acquaintances that were churchgoers that later stopping going to Church and later denied believing in the Bible. I know quite a few sadly.
25 When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?”
26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” (direct question)
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” (direct answer)
30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’[c]”
32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
My comment is based on the fact that my OWN heart has lied to me at times. I’ve thought and “felt” I was doing X, only to realize later that not only was I doing Y, BUT I KNEW IT AT THE TIME.
The Holy Spirit is not deceived, but my conscious mind is...for a time. Until the Spirit smacks me hard enough to make me pay attention. And then He convicts me that I actually knew it all along.
21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ - Matt 7
Seems to me if, on Judgment Day, people dare to say “Lord, Lord, did we not...”, then THEY believe they knew Jesus - and even have deeds to back them up! But I also believe, based on my own experience, that deep down...they KNEW there was something off.
I don’t claim to have a definitive answer. Folks have debated for 2,000 years and I won’t end it now! I really think we overanalyze. If God really needs us to know X, He says it plainly in Scripture. I have good friends who are, to the best of my knowledge after knowing them for decades, both sincere Christians AND Calvinists. I suppose, on the flip side, they would say they know someone who is both a sincere Christian AND an Arminian! They tell me God will make it clear in heaven. I think when we meet Jesus face to face, we’ll stop asking or caring about the answer. I think when we see God clearly, we’ll feel silly about our debates.
But I’ve got at least a dozen books on Calvinism vs Arminianism and am a member of the Society of Evangelical Arminians, so I’ve certainly pondered it a lot!
;>)
This man was caught in SIN. The verse says NOTHING of unbelief.
And yet it is STILL beyond our abilities to detect whether they were 'true' believers or not.
The bible records the instances of a lot of folks who never got what they were promised - Hebrews 11:37-40.
I'd liken the story you've put forward as similar to the parable of the sower.
Seed #1 never got started at all, seeds #2&3 started off seemingly ok, but when...
Thank you for the clarification.
If we’re all honest, we all get those same moments sometimes.
“I really think we overanalyze”
True words regarding this subject especially.
I beat the subject to death sometimes in my dire appeal to the lost.
You studying Calvinism vs. Arminianism that much probably makes you a scholar on the subject. I tend to favor the Calvinists in that argument and I’m a firm believer in Unlimited Atonement and I may be over-analyzing that too. :)
——>David did not lament the loss of his salvation after adultery and murder in Psalm 51
Maybe this is why?
I acknowledged my sin to you, and I did not cover my iniquity; I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the Lord,” and you forgave the iniquity of my sin. (Psalm 32:5).
Yes, about 1500 years of spreading the one true faith before Luther’s rebellion. Even the sons of Luther still fight each other.
Want to see what we’ve done over the centuries? See Epic by Catholics Come Home:
Yeah, your chosen church did really well with those seven Catholic churches mentioned in Revelation chapters 1 thru 3.
Not to matter though, as The Spanish Inquisition really showed the world what TRUE religion was all about.
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