Questions for Dispensationalists, Part 1 of 4

Prophecy Questions Blog ^ | April 21, 2024 | Charles Meek

[Seven_0]

Good question. Think of Isaiah, where the prophesies are out of order chronologically. The same with Revelation.

Maybe not. If Revelation has two concurrent prophecies, the timeline changes completely. There is support for this idea in scripture but I have not read it in any commentaries although many say that the seventh trumpet is very near the end of the tribulation.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

This verse should cause us to look at a split timeline seriously. The structure of scripture gives us a clue of what to expect. The prophecies follow the rule of 1Corinthians 15:46 ,first natural then spiritual. The very first verse of the second prophecy, (11:19) “the temple of God was opened in heaven,” is just one of the many examples. The order ,natural then spiritual, is used in scripture so many times that you cannot find a first-born son in the genealogy of Christ.

You say that events in Revelation are not in chronological order. Is that because it does not fit your interpretation or can you provide other support for the conclusion? We can line up the two prophecies by looking at the intersections. Both have the judgment of the dead Rev11:18 and Rev. 20:12. The rapture occurs in Rev 4:1 and in Rev.14:16. It may be that the events of Revelation 12 and 13 will precede the rapture. Rev 14:13 “Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth.” Is this directed at the people who are about to miss a big event?

There is evidence in scripture that there will be 7 years between the rapture and the second coming. I am not going to discuss that now but we know that God’s word is replete with undiscovered treasure. The correct interpretation will be a perfect fit to what is coming. If the famine of Amos 8:11 coincides with the tribulation, we will do well to ponder the prophetic significance to the seven year of plenty which preceded the seven years famine in Joesph’s day, especially as we are approaching the seventh anniversary of the sign of Revelation 12.

[Cronos]

1. What about those who are post-trib? --> grumpa doesn't seem to be mocking those
   
   
2. Personally, I believe after the seventh trumpet, before the seven bowls of wrath. The bowls will go quickly. Remember the parable of the wheat and tares? - there is no escape rapture of Christians. We have to endure to the end

   Mark 13:20 shows that Christians need to endure

   Mark 13:26-27: this was what Josephus reports for 70 AD

   Rev 11:15 - Revelations 8-11 describes the destruction of the earthly city of Jerusalem

[Cronos]

Your knowledge of your documented histories, recorded by human hands that are flawed, seem to be used more to distract than to persuade.

Nope - the histories of Josephus etc. show that your statement disputing Josephus' veracity is false

By claiming that Josephus was incorrect (based on your faulty evidence from third party sources), you negate the fact that Jesus fulfilled His Olivet promise to return in the lifetime of the generation listening to Him

I am pointing out that you have no evidence for a post 4 BC death of Herod beyond faulty sources.

[thepoodlebites]

The events in Revelation are not in chronological order, similar to the prophesies in Isaiah. Can you honestly say that Isaiah is chronologically accurate? Please review what I posted.

[thepoodlebites]

Who is this that darkens counsel without knowledge? One who engages in circular reasoning, obsessively adhering to one while ignoring the others.

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God. For many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you will know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and which is already in the world at this time. I John 4:1-3

[Cronos]

Who is this that darkens counsel without knowledge?

Well, I could say that it is you for trying to say that Herod died in 1 AD.

[Cronos]

False prophets include Darby who invented new philosophy i.e. the pre tribulation rapture in the early 1800s — the same time that the new philosophies of mormonism, jehovah’s witnesses, seventh day adventists and christian scientists were created.

[af_vet_1981]

you negate the fact that Jesus fulfilled His Olivet promise to return in the lifetime of the generation listening to Him

It seems that you claim that the Messiah has already come a second time with the Roman armies. Is that the belief of your faith community?

[af_vet_1981]

There was no second coming in the first century. This is the Catholic position:

The glorious advent of Christ, the hope of Israel

673 Since the Ascension Christ's coming in glory has been imminent,566 even though "it is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority."567. This eschatological coming could be accomplished at any moment, even if both it and the final trial that will precede it are "delayed".568

674 The glorious Messiah's coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by "all Israel", for "a hardening has come upon part of Israel" in their "unbelief" toward Jesus.569 St. Peter says to the Jews of Jerusalem after Pentecost: "Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old."570 St. Paul echoes him: "For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?"571 The "full inclusion" of the Jews in the Messiah's salvation, in the wake of "the full number of the Gentiles",572 will enable the People of God to achieve "the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ", in which "God may be all in all".573

The Church's ultimate trial

675 Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576

676 The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.578

677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.579 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.580 God's triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.581

[thepoodlebites]

False prophets include Darby who invented new philosophy i.e. the pre tribulation rapture in the early 1800s — the same time that the new philosophies of mormonism, jehovah’s witnesses, seventh day adventists and christian scientists were created.
—
I have stated previously that I am not a a pre-triber. I believe that the physical return of Jesus will occur after the sounding of the seventh (last) trumpet. The saints (both dead and alive) will be taken up to be observers of the wrath of God.
Do you believe that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh? Do you believe that he will return to defeat the antichrist et al.? Or do you believe that that has already occurred?

[thepoodlebites]

Who is this that darkens counsel without knowledge?

Well, I could say that it is you for trying to say that Herod died in 1 AD.
—
You have not proven your point. Unless you can provide an additional reference to compare with Josephus, your argument is circular. Josephus was wrong when comparing the biblical references and the astronomical events surrounding the birth of the Christ. (See January 10, 1 b.c.)
(Also see September 11, 3 b.c., June 17, 2 b.c., Dec. 25, 2 b.c., Friday, April 3, 33 a.d.) (ibid April 2033 a.d. + five months, October 2040 a.d.)?

[thepoodlebites]

You say that events in Revelation are not in chronological order. Is that because it does not fit your interpretation or can you provide other support for the conclusion? We can line up the two prophecies by looking at the intersections. Both have the judgment of the dead Rev. 11:18 and Rev. 20:12. The rapture occurs in Rev 4:1 and in Rev.14:16. It may be that the events of Revelation 12 and 13 will precede the rapture. Rev 14:13 “Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth.” Is this directed at the people who are about to miss a big event?
—
No, I have no false narrative. Why do you suggest that? Is it because you have no reasonable argument?
Rev. 11:18:
“The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come.
The time has come to judge the dead and to reward Your servants the prophets,
as well as the saints and those who fear Your name,
both small and great— and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”
Rev. 20:12
“And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.”
Any reasonable third party can see that Rev. 11:18 refers to a time just before the return of Christ. The entire world is about to be judged. Rev. 20:12 refers to the great white thrown on judgment, after the thousand reign of Christ on Earth. Seems reasonable to me.
Rev. 4:1, “After this I looked and saw a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had previously heard speak to me like a trumpet was saying, ‘Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things.’”
The rapture does not occur at Rev. 4:1. Rev. 4:2 shows that John was taken up in the Spirit to witness many things. That does not mean he was raptured.
Rev. 14:13, “I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on. Yes, says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them.”
How do you get the rapture from that? Obviously, these are the ones who die in Christ during the Great Tribulation. They are considered blessed because they have become martyrs for Christ. See Rev. 7:14, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” Again, I don’t see any obvious reason to disagree.
John goes on to describe many things occurring in heaven, the selection of the one who reads the seals (Jesus), the reading of the seven seals, reactions in heaven, the reading of the first six trumpets, the seventh trumpet: then the end will comes upon the Earth.

[Seven_0]

I think that Revelation could be in chronological order up to the seventh trumpet which brings the kingdoms of this world under the reign of Christ. Then it goes back to the time of Christ and starts again. Dispensationalism is a result of men trying to put events from prophecy on a timeline. There are hundreds of passages that must agree.

Revelation 4:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

I believe this event is the rapture. If not, what is it?

Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Compare these events. In Matthew the bad guys are taken away by judgment. In Revelation the bad guys are left behind for judgment. This give the possibility that they are different events and they could not happen at the same time. These are not in chronological order.

If the seventh trumpet is the second coming of Christ then the last thing that happens before Christ returns would be the seven thunders. I think that is a good fit.

[thepoodlebites]

Revelation 4:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
I believe this event is the rapture. If not, what is it?
Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Compare these events. In Matthew the bad guys are taken away by judgment. In Revelation the bad guys are left behind for judgment. This give the possibility that they are different events and they could not happen at the same time. These are not in chronological order.
—
Compare Rev. 4:16 with Rev. 14:15,16.
These are the same events. Rev. 4 is a recapitulation of Rev. 14. John sees many things that come to him as he sees them. Think of these disjointed revelations (visions and dreams) as echos, reverberations of the events that must precede the return of Christ. When Jesus returns, everybody will see him with his angels. They will mourn the one who was pierced and flee to the mountains. The rapture of the elect, whose names are written in the Book of Life, must precede the reaping by the angels with their sickles.
Then, the last seven plagues (bowls of wrath) will proceed. Jesus Christ will touch down on the Mount of Olives and there will be a great earthquake that separates Israel from East to West. Those who accepted the Mark of the Beast will be bound and held for judgment (the second death). Christ will destroy the armies of the Antichrist and the false prophet. The dragon (devil) will be bound for a thousand years. Jesus will restore a pristine Earth and set up his kingdom, in Jerusalem. He will reign on a restored Earth with his elect for one thousand years.

And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. Rev. 14:15,16
—
If the seventh trumpet is the second coming of Christ then the last thing that happens before Christ returns would be the seven thunders. I think that is a good fit.
—
Yes, the seven thunders will usher in the rapture of the saints, the return of Christ as King and the final seven judgments (God’s vengeance) on Earth. These thunders may represent the sound when Christ touches down on the Mount of Olives. The saints will be in heaven and stand as witnesses (observers).
Jesus Christ leads his army of angels against the devil, the Antichrist and his false prophet. The Antichrist and his armies are defeated. The devil, who was confined to Earth (being defeated in the second war in heaven, see Rev. 12), is bound for a thousand years, then let loose for a season, to tempt the nations. But this is another great mystery.

[Seven_0]

Rev 4:16?

[thepoodlebites]

Rev 4:16?
—
Thanks for the correction. The verse should be Rev. 14:16, not 4:16. I trusted seven_0 to be accurate with his quotations of the Holy Bible. My bad. But my argument stands without a proper rebuttal. Are there any eschatological experts out there in FR Land? Speak up, oh you who are so learned.

[Seven_0]

The saints will be in heaven and stand as witnesses (observers). Jesus Christ leads his army of angels against the devil, the Antichrist and his false prophet.

Revelation 19: 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Maybe the armies are not angels?

[thepoodlebites]

The saints will be in heaven and stand as witnesses (observers). Jesus Christ leads his army of angels against the devil, the Antichrist and his false prophet.

Revelation 19: 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Maybe the armies are not angels?
//
Sigh, what is your evidence? Or are you a troll? My guess would be troll because you have added nothing of substance to the conversation. Low signl posters are an anomaly in the quest for truth.

[Seven_0]

The group in Revelation 19:8 clothed in fine linen are not angels. Are these armies, clothed in fine linen in Revelation 19:14, the same group?

Where does scripture speak of the righteousness of angels?
God covered our nakedness, first with coats of skins and later with righteousness, fine linen. Do angels put on righteousness?

[thepoodlebites]

The group in Revelation 19:8 clothed in fine linen are not angels. Are these armies, clothed in fine linen in Revelation 19:14, the same group?
—
Rev. 19:8 refers to the marriage supper of the Lamb. The saints are clothed in fine linen as the Bride of Christ. See also Rev. 7:14: “These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” The angels are clothed in white also but they are not the Bride of Christ. The Church is the Bride of Christ.

Where does scripture speak of the righteousness of angels?
God covered our nakedness, first with coats of skins and later with righteousness, fine linen. Do angels put on righteousness?
—
Angels in the presence of God are by definition, holy. Because the LORD God is holy. But one third of the angels of heaven, who left their first estate, await judgment.

Mark 13:26,27
“At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And He will send out the angels to gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.”
Please read Rev. 14 again. Jesus Christ and the angels have sharp sickles to harvest the Earth; to administer judgment. Where does the scriptures say that the saints will participate?