God in the Hands of Angry Sinners

Grace Sermons ^ | R.C. Sproul

[RichardMoore]

No, I say if your interpretation of the Bible disagrees with the Catholic Church's interpretation then you are wrong.

[Elsie]

No, I say if your interpretation of the Bible disagrees with the Catholic Church's interpretation then you are wrong.

Forgetting the above for a moment, will you agree that the ADVANCING and/or PROTECTING of that church has had some NON-Jesus type of implementation?

[AlguyA]

"From what I can tell, the elders seem to be a body of judgment established perhaps as an independent body of jurisprudence overseeing the interplay amongst the creation."

So are these elders human or angelic?

[Elsie]

Their father says with great conviction that they are Catholic..but the truth is he has not been in a church for 10 years (since the wedding) . He likes to sleep in on Sundays..so if they are to be churched it is with me.

Mom, it sound like inwardly that you are holding onto this......

---

1 Corinthians 7:12-17
12. To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her.
13. And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him.
14. For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.
15. But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace.
16. How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?
17. Nevertheless, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches.

[Elsie]

If I may butt in.............

 

 

If the SAINTs in Heaven can pray for us, how do we get our 'message' to them?

 

Is it NOT by 'prayer'?  (So far, I have no heavenly e-mail address for Christopher........)

 

 

 

 

And, in a related note, if these SAINTs ARE alive in Heaven, how do I understand THESE verses?

 

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
 13.  Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope.
 14.  We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him*. 
 15.  According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
 16.  For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 
 17.  After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
 18.  Therefore encourage each other with these words.

 

* (believers, or SAINTS)

 

Do they say, "Hey!!  I hear a trumpet!  Gotta run - see you in a few, for I have to GET BACK IN THE GRAVE so I can RISE and beat those living dudes on the Earth.  I've got to be WITH them to MEET JESUS."

[Elsie]

 Acts 7:59-60
 59.  While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."
 60.  Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep. (a BELIEVER)

 

Acts 13:36-37
 36.  "For when David had served God's purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his fathers and his body decayed.
 37.  But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.

 

1 Corinthians 11:30
  That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

 

1 Corinthians 15:6
 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. (BELIEVERs)

 

1 Corinthians 15:17-23
 17.  And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
 18.  Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost.           (BELIEVERs)
 19.  If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
 20.  But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.    (BELIEVERs)
 21.  For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
 22.  For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.   (future)
 23.  But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. (future)

 

 

1 Corinthians 15:51-57
 51.  Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--
 52.  in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.    (future)
 53.  For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
 54.  When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."   (future)
 55.  "Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?"
 56.  The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 
 57.  But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

 

1 Thessalonians 5:9-11
  9.  For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
 10.  He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. (future)
 11.  Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

 

[irishtenor]

The whole question is "Why pray to a saint when you can pray to the Father himself?" Jesus and his action now allow us DIRECT access to God. Why go through any other channel than through the Son of the Father? As I told the other guy, it is like calling the Hawaii fire department that you have a fire, when you live in New York. They may be nice people in Hawaii, but they can't help you. Believers are saints. Rev. 22:8-9 tell of John falling in worship to an angel, also. Read the angel's response. The angel says that he, and ALL who keep the words of this book (the Bible)are all the same, don't worship them, don't pray to them, Worship God!.

[irishtenor]

But, if the Bible and the church disagree, who is right?

[RichardMoore]

I will agree that many people of different ideologies, religions, and philosophies have sinned either in the name of said ideology,religion, or philosophy or in spite of it. But that has no bearing on the truth of the message of the Gospel.

[RichardMoore]

But who is to say that they disagree?

[irishtenor]

I am just asking. If they disagree, who is right, the church or the Bible? Do you pray to Mother Teresa?

[Elsie]

I will agree that many people of different ideologies............

No doubt that PEOPLE have, but my question

Forgetting the above for a moment, will you agree that the ADVANCING and/or PROTECTING of that church has had some NON-Jesus type of implementation?

should have been more precise: Has the CHURCH, as Official Policy, done these things?

[RichardMoore]

Well, forgetting your question for a while, what's your point? Because your just trying to manipulate me like a trial lawyer. And we know that the law cannot save.

[Elsie]

Because your just trying to manipulate me like a trial lawyer.

Dang! You've seen thru me ;^)

---

Of COURSE I'm trying to manipulate you: into either backing off from or agreeing wholeheartedly to, your previous assertion that the 'church' was NEVER wrong, just some individuals in it.

Will you?

[RichardMoore]

So you wanna nit pick, eh? The Church is protected from doctrinal error by the Holy Spirit. John 16:13-19

[Elsie]

So, you want to not answer the question? Fine with me.

I'm not the one to has to internalize dichotomy of a 'perfect church' failing to do perfect things.

[Gamecock]

BTTT

[ears_to_hear]

Thanks for the BTTT

[Lord_Calvinus]

Good stuff from Sproul, even if it is a bit of an old thread.