God in the Hands of Angry Sinners

Grace Sermons ^ | R.C. Sproul

[Jerry_M]

Something to ponder:

But there are some who say, "It is hard for God to choose some and leave others." Now, I will ask you one question. Is there any of you here this morning who wishes to be holy, who wishes to be regenerate, to leave off sin and walk in holiness? "Yes, there is," says some one, "I do." Then God has elected you. But another says, "No; I don't want to be holy; I don't want to give up my lusts and my vices." Why should you grumble, then, that God has not elected you to it? For if you were elected you would not like it, according to your own confession. If God this morning had chosen you to holiness, you say you would not care for it. Do you not acknowledge that you prefer drunkenness to sobriety, dishonesty to honesty? You love this world's pleasures better than religion; then why should you grumble that God has not chosen you to religion? If you love religion, he has chosen you to it. If you desire it, he has chosen you to it. If you do not, what right have you to say that God ought to have given you what you do not wish for? Supposing I had in my hand something which you do not value, and I said I shall give it to such-and-such a person, you would have no right to grumble that I did not give to you. You could not be so foolish as to grumble that the other has got what you do not care about. According to your own confession, many of you do not want religion, do not want a new heart and a right spirit, do not want the forgiveness of sins, do not want sanctification; you do not want to be elected to these things: then why should you grumble? You count these things but as husks, and why should you complain of God who has given them to those whom he has chosen? If you believe them to be good and desire them, they are there for thee. God gives liberally to all those who desire; and first of all, he makes them desire, otherwise they never would. If you love these things, he has elected you to them, and you may have them; but if you do not, who are you that you should find fault with God, when it is your own desperate will that keeps you from loving these things?your own simple self that makes you hate them? Suppose a man in the street should say, "What a shame it is I cannot have a seat in the chapel to hear what this man has to say." And suppose he says, "I hate the preacher; I can't bear his doctrine; but still it's a shame I have not a seat." Would you expect a man to say so? No: you would at once say, "That man does not care for it. Why should he trouble himself about other people having what they value and he despises?" You do not like holiness, you do not like righteousness; if God has elected me to these things, has he hurt you by it? "Ah! but," say some, "I thought it meant that God elected some to heaven and some to hell." That is a very different matter from the gospel doctrine. He has elected men to holiness and to righteousness and through that to heaven. You must not say that he has elected them simply to heaven, and others only to hell. He has elected you to holiness, if you love holiness. If any of you love to be saved by Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ elected you to be saved. If any of you desire to have salvation, you are elected to have it, if you desire it sincerely and earnestly. But, if you don't desire it, why on earth should you be so preposterously foolish as to grumble because God gives that which you do not like to other people? - C.H. Spurgeon

[xzins]

I don't think anyone wants to part of "the smoke rises for ever and ever." That image is easily understood in earthly terms....I know of no one who desires the pain of burning to death. I know some chose self-immolation during the Vietnam war and in other Buddhist/Hindu cultures. But I think they knew it would be painful. And I don't think they desired the pain. They desired the message they were sending.

There's a difference between getting what you deserve and desiring an eternity of pain.

[xzins]

Yes. I agree with Spurgeon on this. Why complain about not getting what you don't desire?

I think that's true whether one approaches it from the perspective of predestination premised on foreordination or predestination premised on absolute foreknowledge.

If I don't go to the auction, I can't complain that I didn't get to bid.

[Jerry_M]

First off, you and I are going to disagree on the definition of foreknowledge". You see it as God's passive view of the future, I see it as His active "foreloving" of His intended. He predestined those whom He foreloved.

That said, regardless of which of us is correct, there is still the small matter of Romans Chapter Three. Did Paul (and the Psalmist before him) exaggerate when he said "There is none who seeks after God"? (And a host of similar statements.)

Was this simple hyperbole on his part, or did he, led by the Holy Spirit, accurately describethe condition of men's hearts?

All the foreknowledge in the world is worthless unless God moves to change the destiny of men.

I sometimes wonder why your Arminian compadres are so deadset against the Sovereign election of God. They must see Him at work in the Old Testament, choosing Noah over the rest of the world, the Hebrews over the Egyptians, the Israelites over the Caananites and Philistines, etc. Do they somehow believe that God operates differently in this day and age? (Dispensationalists need not answer, we already know what you say.)

No, it is a constant source of puzzlement to me that there are those who adamantly claim that God's salvation is dependent upon the actions of men who cannot act unless life is first given to them.

Oh well, the debate has continued all these centuries, I espect that it will continue until God makes all of us Calvinists. "Salvation is of the LORD."

[xzins]

First, I agree with you. There is none who seek after God. The only way to seek is if the Holy Spirit makes it possible.

Second, I am barely an arminian anymore, if at all. At this point, I am unfettered. Can't really describe it to you. Call it "listening." I liked P-marlowe's article on God's authority over time. God dwells in eternity. I have no problems with His sovereignty.

I will defend free will theology when it's misrepresented. I don't know enough to defend my calvinist brothers and sisters when they're misrepresented, but I've tried. I regret false accusations of the past.

I deeply respect DrSteve, You, Fru, DrE, Bib Chr....others.

And you are also a chaplain, and that makes you even more special to me. (But you already knew that.)

[Gamecock]

They don't want God. They want nothing to do with religion. They don't want god, they get exactly what they want, an eternity seperated from God. It just happens to in a place that is a horror...

[Frumanchu]

Hey, I think I dropped off your ping list (:0

[Jerry_M]

I have had a feeling for some time that your position has shifted. That is one of the reasons I mentioned "Arminian compadres", and not "you Arminians" in my last post.

You stated that men only seek out God if the Holy Spirit makes it possible. Yet, does the Holy Spirit grant this "possibility" to all men, everywhere?

You are only a short step away from the freedom of full blown five-point Calvinism. I pray that God will direct that step soon. (It truly is liberating!)

[xzins]

I agree with what you've written.

My point is this: If you ask them if they desire to burn for eternity, they would say "no."

[ponyespresso]

I sometimes wonder why your Arminian compadres are so deadset against the Sovereign election of God.

I've really been thinking about my own attitues towards the doctrine of election since I have been reading some Reformed viewpoints (I am currently reading through Louis Berkof's Systematic Theology. I'm finding it really interesting)

I think when I was a younger Christian the doctrine of election was presented as a kind of exclusive club, "we are the elect", and it was suggested (though never really overtly declared) that if you are not the "elect" now, you probably never will be. I know others who have more drastic stories, I don't. But I know that's sort of how I felt when I talked with those from a Reformed or Calvinist background.

I think if someone would have just told me, "Look, the Father chooses some from the foundation of the world. It is not our job to decide who we think (read: who we WANT) the Father to choose, the best we can do is preach the gospel to the whole world and let the Father call whom he will. Frankly, we don't know who is the elect, and we can't use "election" as a choice for us to decide who we want to assoicate with. In fact, we can be pretty darn sure that the Father is going to "elect" some that we would rather not choose ourselves. But it is not our will, nor our choice be done, but the Fathers, and we must welcome whom the Father welcomes."

I think if someone said (and lived) something like that I would have been more open early on.

Does that make sense? Do you ever find that the doctrine of election is sometimes used merely to promote an exclusive club of a certain type of people? Or am I just being overly suspicious?

pony

[Gamecock]

If you ask them that, they will say no, but they don't take out fire insurance.


Their lack of belief speaks louder than their words!

[CCWoody]

context, context, context

Paul is not talking about God's salvific love in this passage. Paul is setting up the virtue of love as greatest of all things that man is to pursue and abide in.

But of course, Woody, you knew that. ~ ponyespresso

But, of course! And, as Paul Harvey would say: "And now, the rest of the story...."

As I stood there, preoccupied with keeping the 5 year old looking good and out of stuff & threatening the 7 year old with death stares when he produced a whistle and put it in his mouth, much to distracted to concentrate on the pastor reading from 1 Co 13, the great Luv chapter, and extolling the virtues of human love, this question popped into my mind....


• "Does My love fail?"

And, the obvious answer is, NO, the Lord's glorious sacrificial love never fails. This is the great love Calvinism proclaims. The Lord's love, revealed for us in blood, never fails. But, this is not the Arminian construct at all.

According to Arminianism....
• Human love never fails.
• Divine love often fails.

And, as a Calvinist, I think that is shameful. So, yes, I knew that 1 Co. 13:8 in context is a reference to human love. So, what exactly is your point...

And it is obvious since you and your cohorts have exhausted all the passages that can be used to establish Calvinism as the only way to interpret Scripture, it seems that you are now baiting the hook with traditionally non-Calvinist passages just to stir up the waters (and, of course, being the young and naive fish that I am, I have taken the bait...) ~ ponyespresso

Baiting the hook...? Nope! I think you fail to see the implications of what it is you believe. Obviously, Human love is much more glorious and grand than the Lord's love, even if it is sealed in blood. After all, human love is able to do what Divine love cannot. According to Arminianism,...


• human love never fails
  
  whereas
  
  
• Divine love often fails.

It does seem as if Arminianism teaches that human beings have clearly transcended God.

But, before you get too excited, let me point out something which you have obviously not considered in your reply....

I freely grant you that 1 Co. 13:8 is, in context, referring to human love. But, Biblically, human love, perfectly expressed, is meant to mimic Divine Love.


• Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the Church, and gave Himself for it,...
  (Eph 5:25 GB)
• Greater love than this has no man, when any man bestows his life for his friends....
  (Joh 15:13 GB)

So, it should be quite obvious that human love when perfectly expressed, you know, the kind which never fails, is nothing more than a mimic of Divine Love. As a husband, I am commanded to love my wife as Christ loved the Church. As a friend, I cannot express my love any greater than to lay it down for them.

Human love, when perfectly expressed is a sacrificial love, just as the LORD's love for us is a sacrificial love. But, even beyond that, you have failed to notice that this perfect human love that never fails, is a work of Divine love through us ordained before time began.


• For we are His [the Father's] workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God [the Father] has ordained,...
  (Eph 2:10 GB)
• I am that vine: you are the branches: he that abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without Me can you do nothing.
  (Joh 15:5 GB)

So, human love, is nothing more than a Divine ordained and Divine worked love to begin with.



And, that pretty much renders any distinction you may have perceived existed in your contextual argument moot.

It's good to see a Calvinist talk about love however. It seems to happen so little. ~ ponyespresson

What!?! We Calvinists talk about love all the time. You simply aren't paying attention if you think we don't. Election is a great expression of Divine Love, the kind which never fails and is much more glorious than the Arminian version of divine Love, which frequently fails and is not even as powerful as human love.


• But God which is rich in mercy, through His great love wherewith He loved us, even when we were dead by sins, has quickened us together in Christ, by whose grace you are saved, and has raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that He might show in the ages to come the exceeding riches of His grace, through His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
  (Eph 2:4-7 GB)

Oh, and before I forget, I take exception that somehow the luv passages are non-Calvinist passages. Every passage in the Bible is a Calvinist passage.

Woody.

[CCWoody]

Do you ever find that the doctrine of election is sometimes used merely to promote an exclusive club of a certain type of people? ~ ponyespresso

Yep! Forgiven sinners.

Woody.

But, I suppose that there are others who promote other types of exculsiveism.

[RnMomof7]

But Woody, you seem to be forgetting how the condemned sinner receives the love of God in hell - as the pain of loss and pain of sense. Rather than seeing God and being enraptured by His love, the sinner sees God and is tormented in infernal flames from His love rejected. God loves the sinner, but the sinner cannot bear the love of God. The torment of the sinner is precisely the love of God towards him.

God does not love the reprobate we have already talked about this ..For Petes sake Hermann READ YOUR BIBLE if you think I am lying

GOD HATES ALL WORKERS OF INIQUITY” Psalms 5:5

THE BIBLE SAYS GOD HATES SINNERS, NOT JUST THE SIN:
Leviticus 20:23: “And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nations which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I ABHORRED THEM.”

Leviticus 26:14-30: “If ye will not hearken unto Me, and will not do all these commandments; And if ye shall despise My statutes, or if your soul abhor My judgments, so that ye will not do all My commandments, but that ye break My covenant, I also will do this to you... [send plagues, famine, drought, destructive armies, wild beasts who shall devour your children, pestilence, captivity in a cruel land...] And if ye will not for all this hearken unto Me, but walk contrary to Me; Then I WILL WALK CONTRARY TO YOU IN FURY... I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcasses upon the carcasses of your idols, and MY SOUL SHALL ABHOR YOU.”

Deuteronomy 18:12 “For all that do these things are an ABOMINATION TO THE LORD, and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.”

Deuteronomy 25:16: “...ALL THAT DO UNRIGHTEOUSLY ARE AN ABOMINATION UNTO THE LORD.”

Deuteronomy 28:62-63: “Because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the Lord thy God... it shall come to pass, that as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the Lord will the Lord will REJOICE OVER YOU TO DESTROY YOU, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.” (In Deuteronomy 27, 28, and

29, 124 CURSES are promised upon the Jews who refused to obey God’s commandments.)

Deuteronomy 32:16-20: “They provoked Him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations they provoked Him to ANGER... And when the Lord saw it [people sacrificing to devils - v.17], HE ABHORRED THEM...”

Psalm 2:4-9: “The Lord that sits in the heavens shall LAUGH [at rebellious men]: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall He speak unto them in His WRATH, and VEX THEM IN HIS SORE DISPLEASURE... [and Christ shall] break them with a rod of iron: Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”

Psalm 5:5-6: “The foolish shall not stand in Thy sight: THOU HATEST ALL WORKERS OF INIQUITY. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing (lies): THE LORD WILL ABHOR THE BLOODY AND DECEITFUL MAN.”

Psalm 7:11-13: “...God is ANGRY with the wicked every day. If he turn not, He will whet His sword; He hath bent His bow, and made it ready. He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; He ordaineth His arrows against the persecutors.”

Psalm 10:3: “For the wicked... blesseth the covetous, WHOM THE LORD ABHORRETH.”

Psalm 11:5-7: “The Lord trieth the righteous: but THE WICKED AND HIM THAT LOVETH VIOLENCE HIS SOUL HATETH. Upon the wicked He shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. For the righteous Lord loveth righteousness...”

Psalm 50:22: “Now consider this, ye that forget God, LEST I TEAR YOU IN PIECES, AND THERE BE NONE TO DELIVER.”

Psalm 106:40: “Therefore was the wrath of the Lord kindled against His people, insomuch that HE ABHORRED HIS OWN INHERITANCE.”

Proverbs 3:32-33: “For the froward is an ABOMINATION TO THE LORD... The CURSE OF THE LORD is in the house of the wicked: but He blesseth the habitation of the just.”

Proverbs 6:16-19: “These six things doth THE LORD HATE: yea, seven are AN ABOMINATION TO HIM... A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among the brethren.”

Proverbs 16:5: “Every one that is proud in heart is an ABOMINATION TO THE LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.”

Proverbs 17:5: “He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are ABOMINATION TO THE LORD.”

Jeremiah 17:5: “Thus saith the Lord, CURSED BE THE MAN that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.”

Hosea 9:15: “All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I HATED THEM: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of Mine house, I WILL LOVE THEM NO MORE...”

Malachi 1:3-4: “And I HATED ESAU, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness...thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and the people AGAINST WHOM THE LORD HATH INDIGNATION FOREVER.”

Romans 9:13: “As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but ESAU HAVE I HATED.”

I Corinthians 16:22: “If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be ANATHEMA MARANATHA [which means ACCURSED, THE LORD COMETH].”

James 4:4: “Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that friendship of the world is ENMITY (or HATRED) WITH GOD? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is an ENEMY OF GOD.”

I Peter 3:12: “For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and His ears are open to their prayers: but THE FACE OF THE LORD IS AGAINST THEM THAT DO EVIL.”

Revelation 14:10-11: “[Sinners] shall drink of the wine of the WRATH OF GOD, which is poured without mixture into the cup of HIS INDIGNATION; and he shall be TORMENTED WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY ANGELS, AND IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB; And the smoke of their TORMENT ascendeth up for ever and ever; and they have NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT...”

[RnMomof7]

I deeply respect DrSteve, You, Fru, DrE, Bib Chr....others.

I am deeply wounded that you do not respect me :>))

[RnMomof7]

Yea I do not know what happened..you are back on now

[drstevej]

cool post! you da man.

[editor-surveyor]

If you know in the depths of your own evil heart that you are going to burn in hell, who do you blame it on?

Well if you are the typical omnipotent humanist, you have to blame God; after all, he did set out to 'save us all' didn't he? And he clearly has failed at that task, has he not? So all we have left is to use our own 'free will' and do enough good deeds that God will be shamed into letting us in on the party to hide his own failure!

Well perfesser Woody, did I get an A on my Arminianism 1-a final? :o)

[RnMomof7]

My point is this: If you ask them if they desire to burn for eternity, they would say "no."

I am not so sure Xzins. Those that hate God have no desire to be with him at all. I believe they continue to curse God , even in Hell

Note that Jesus said that

Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Then John notes that even in the face of Hell they continued to hate God

    Rev 16:9   And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.      Rev 16:10   And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

     Rev 16:11   And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

You know all these second chance cults..do not seem to understand even as the flames of Hell lap at their feet , they continue to curse God. They do not desire a second chance

[RnMomof7]

I think when I was a younger Christian the doctrine of election was presented as a kind of exclusive club, "we are the elect", and it was suggested (though never really overtly declared) that if you are not the "elect" now, you probably never will be. I know others who have more drastic stories, I don't. But I know that's sort of how I felt when I talked with those from a Reformed or Calvinist background.

My guess is if someone uses it as a club or claims a "special status". They may not be saved

One thing Calvinism does is humble you..not puff yourself up

What you see is there is nothing worthy of Gods love in you. Only the Grace of God gives you any standing.

I go to a Presbyterian church , I have never heard that there , what I hear is a desire to grow closer to God. No one thinks that they are "special ".

My church does frequent sermons on salvation and offers the gospel

I have never heard the doctrine of election given in any other way than with an awareness of our sinfulness and a grateful heart that He granted to save us..

Not being sarcastic..but I think there is more pride to be found in those that think they were cleaver enough to figure it out..or that they can "save " someone (as we so often hear:>)