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Archaeologist Unearths Bibical Controversy
Globe And Mail ^ | 1-25-2005 | Michael Valpy

Posted on 01/26/2005 8:44:58 PM PST by blam

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To: SunkenCiv

Please add me to this list, Thanks!


61 posted on 01/27/2005 7:58:58 AM PST by Right in Wisconsin
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To: Just mythoughts
aha! Gotcha - "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples (examples): and they are written for our admonition, (warning)" Is an indication it was not written as history - but with a bias - to illustrate or justify a morality tale.

You need to understand what "history" implies. PS: I have posted many things from the bible - pro - bible and rspectful of the New Testemant - that is.

But I am not a fundamentalist in that I don't think every thing in the Bible is to be taken literally. Much is allegory.

62 posted on 01/27/2005 8:05:06 AM PST by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting johnathangaltfilms.com and jihadwatch.org)
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To: Destro

"But I am not a fundamentalist in that I don't think every thing in the Bible is to be taken literally. Much is allegory."

Yes, those evil fundamentalist. You are brainwashed!


63 posted on 01/27/2005 8:10:23 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: Just mythoughts

I am not brainwashed - I follow original, orthodox and pure Christianity directly linked to to the Apostles.


64 posted on 01/27/2005 8:15:01 AM PST by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting johnathangaltfilms.com and jihadwatch.org)
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To: PFC
Archaelogists have unearthed a site they believe to be ancient Troy - it matches the description given by Homer. Should this be used as proof that the Olympians were real gods?

Actually, the more they learn about the Late Bronze Age, the more they realize how many little details Homer got right (there are also some little details about features of LBA ships that appear in the Odyssey, for example). While that doesn't prove the Olympians were real gods, it does suggest that there can be a firm historical grounding and firm historical details in ancient accounts of what happened, even when they've been passed down verbally for many generations.

I, personally, believe that the Old Testament was heavily editorialized and do believe that some amount of ancient Near-Eastern and Middle-Eastern mythology and speculation may have found it's way into the Bible (e.g., the Tower of Babel, the Flood, etc.) and are not literally true. I don't find that particularly shocking or problematic, nor do I have any particular axe to grind with those who do believe they are literally true.

As for miracles in general, Timothy Luke Johnson makes an excellent point about that in his book The Real Jesus : The Misguided Quest for the Historical Jesus and the Truth of the Traditional Gospels. If you exclude all of the miracles in the Gospels as myth, you shouldn't be surprised if you wind up with a Jesus who is just a man. Basically, you wind up excluding the evidence that could create a different conclusion. In a broader sense, if you insist on viewing everything in the Bible through a secular lens in which miracles and anything having to do with God is rejected, of course you can create an interpretation that's free of God and miracles. It's simply the flip side of the claim that people who are religious find God because they want to -- perhaps non-religious people don't find God because they don't want to.

65 posted on 01/27/2005 8:19:19 AM PST by Question_Assumptions
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To: Destro
If you were to ask most Jewish scholars, they would agree..

The "Old Testament" was meant to teach the religion of God.. Judaism, and used myth, allegory, and symbolism to do so..
We know that Hittite and Sumerian legends of the creation were incorporated into the first book of Genesis..
Proceeding books looked at historical events ( i.e., current events to the Israelites ) and interpreted them in their religious context to build upon the lessons God was trying to teach his "chosen people"..

While occassionally historically significant events were recorded, it was their religious significance that was emphasized.. ( what lesson does this event teach about God's will ? )

66 posted on 01/27/2005 8:24:59 AM PST by Drammach (Freedom; not just a job, it's an adventure..)
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To: John O
Well, I know that Catholics and evangelical Christians all say the book of Samuel was divinely inspired. I guess that's close enough to revealed by God.

Not necessarily. Pick up the soundtrack CD of a movie sometime and then pick up a CD of music "inspired" by that movie. There is a big difference between the Word of God and the Word of God filtered through fallible human authors who introduce their own opinions, world view, interpretations, and errors into the mix.

One problem with modern copies of ancient texts is that they often give the false impression that there is one difinitive and correct copy of ancient texts. Heck, read the introduction to a book containing the collective works of Shakespeare, written far more recently, and you'll see that not only isn't there one difinitive version of many Shakespeare plays but that the spelling has been regularized and edited. Similarly, if you go back and look at Biblical texts, including those found at the Dead Sea, you'll find that they don't always agree 100% (hence the footnotes in some translations). Does that mean that the Bible is riddled with errors? No. But it does mean that it's also not 100% perfect, either. And I honestly don't see why that's a problem for so many people. If you are basing your entire faith on the meaning of one word, phrase, or even story in the Bible, I think you are missing the forest for the trees.

67 posted on 01/27/2005 8:31:39 AM PST by Question_Assumptions
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To: Drammach

EXACTLY


68 posted on 01/27/2005 8:34:18 AM PST by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting johnathangaltfilms.com and jihadwatch.org)
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To: ValerieUSA
Your objections to the way the story is written are actually kind of funny since the source is the Toronto Globe and Mail, which is the Canadian equivalent to the NY Times. The story is somewhat sensationalistic, but it accurately reflects the current debate in Biblical Archaeology over the past decade. If you are interested you should read Williams Dever's What Did the Biblical Writers Know and When Did They Know It? He correctly points out that many of the minimalists are politically motivated leftists, while others are honestly trying to find the truth, but rely too heavily on their belief that the OT is religious propaganda. Dever is hardly a fundamentalist and doesn't believe the Torah is history.
69 posted on 01/27/2005 8:54:41 AM PST by Pres Raygun
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To: blam
O.K., no more whining about RDC.

If literalists are going to accept the dating of the Edomite fortress, then they can accept the dating of a fire pit in a cave in france to 30,000 years B.C., and the great coal seams of the Permian Age., approx. 280 million years ago.

70 posted on 01/27/2005 8:55:08 AM PST by muleskinner
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To: R. Scott
On this point it is. That does not mean the entire work is 100% historical truth – the story of Jericho is a case in point.

The story of Jericho is thought to be myth because the destruction layers found at Jericho are dated at a time that doesn't match the currently accepted chronology for the Israelites in Canaan. That is why this finding is so significant. It has the potential to alter the accepted chronology of the Israelites, so that the Biblical accounts of Israel align up well with archeology, including Jericho.

71 posted on 01/27/2005 9:02:09 AM PST by Pres Raygun
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To: Drammach
While occassionally historically significant events were recorded, it was their religious significance that was emphasized.. ( what lesson does this event teach about God's will ? )

The whole idea behind the OT is that God revealed Himself to Israel through their history. If the history wasn't accurate how could the lessons learned also be accurate? If the OT isn't historically accurate it is largely worthless. Likewise the NT is also worthless since it assumes the OT is historically accurate.

72 posted on 01/27/2005 9:09:26 AM PST by Pres Raygun
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To: Destro
Interesting site about Historical Errors in the Bible and some of the observations are interesting, but it potentially makes some of the same mistakes that Timothy Luke Johnson pointed toward the Historical Jesus movement making. In particular, there are legitimate reasons for assuming that the oldest manuscript is the most accurate or that non-Biblical sources are more accurate but they are assumptions, not proof.

Passages that exist in newer manuscripts but not older ones may certainly have been introduced later (and I'm especially inclined to believe that they were when the grammer, vocabulary, style, or other details point to the hand of a different author) but some also could have come from an oral tradition or other even older manuscripts that no longer exist to compare against. There is a lot of oral mythology built into the interpretation of many Bible stories that are not clearly supported by the text. They could be later additions or could very well be based on authentic oral history or earlier variants. For example, I'm not entirely convinced that a "Q" existed or that Mark, per se, was a major source for the other Gospels. As the non-canon Gospel of Thomas shows, the sayings and acts of Jesus travelled around verbally in many forms, just as the Quran did. We don't know what all of the original sourses were and there may have been even more material that once existed that has now been lost. The similarities and differences could simply reflect was different communities remembered.

73 posted on 01/27/2005 9:19:34 AM PST by Question_Assumptions
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To: Pres Raygun

I hope it does.


74 posted on 01/27/2005 9:24:10 AM PST by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: Vast Buffalo Wing Conspiracy
"Piecing together archeology is like trying to put together a jigsaw puzzle, with 99% of the pieces lost or missing. Trying to make dogmatic assertions based on fragmentary evidence is a chancy business at best."

Is this also how you feel about those 'evolutionary tree of life' claims?

75 posted on 01/27/2005 9:24:16 AM PST by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: Destro
"I am not brainwashed - I follow original, orthodox and pure Christianity directly linked to to the Apostles."

How do you know?

76 posted on 01/27/2005 9:26:39 AM PST by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: Question_Assumptions
Just because I linked does not mean i accept that site. It was near the top of my google link.

A true historian would not have prejudged hostility to the bible nor will he try and protect the bible's accuracy.

77 posted on 01/27/2005 9:29:23 AM PST by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting johnathangaltfilms.com and jihadwatch.org)
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To: MEGoody
Apostolic succession.
78 posted on 01/27/2005 9:29:58 AM PST by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting johnathangaltfilms.com and jihadwatch.org)
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To: PFC
Should this be used as proof that the Olympians were real gods?

Nope.

But it certainly provides proof to refute the theories that Troy never existed.

79 posted on 01/27/2005 9:31:34 AM PST by malakhi
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To: the_Watchman

"And because everything that takes place in the Middle East inevitably is political, the minimalist argument is seen as weakening modern Israel's claim to Palestine."

This really blows a hole in the minimalist argument. What will the Palestinians do now? Oh, right keep right on killing Jews.


80 posted on 01/27/2005 9:35:23 AM PST by Rocket1968 (No more Daschle - No more Daschle)
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