The Mysteries of Mass

Scientific American ^ | July 2005 (that issue) | Gordon Kane

[PatrickHenry]

Thanks for the clarification. From my squinty-eyed perspective, it sounds too much like Plato's parable of the cave. I'm betting on the Higgs. (But what do I know?)

[Physicist]

I'm betting on the Higgs.

The two views aren't mutually exclusive. I think you still need a Higgs-like state (although not necessarily the Standard Model Higgs; dynamical symmetry breaking through a technirho mechanism will suffice) to preserve unitarity in the electroweak sector. (OK, so that was damned geeky. Ignore the lyrics, just groove to the beat.)

I hope that extra dimensions are discovered, because it's high time society was dealt another philosophical sockdolager from the world of physics.

[PatrickHenry]

I hope that extra dimensions are discovered, because it's high time society was dealt another philosophical sockdolager from the world of physics.

If you can convince the gov't that they can tax those extra dimensions, they'll fund the research.

[kanawa]

Bump for when I'm smart

[zeugma]

Bump for when I'm smart

LoL!

[longshadow]

I think you still need a Higgs-like state (although not necessarily the Standard Model Higgs; dynamical symmetry breaking through a technirho mechanism will suffice) to preserve unitarity in the electroweak sector.

If you keep talking dirty like that, I'm liable to get aroused! Stop before I can't control myself any longer!

Seriously, I had never heard about this idea of mass being attributed to a "mystery dimension" -- it's very intriguing and has a fascinating, almost intuitive appeal. Thanks for sharing it with us Philistines.

[js1138]

placemarker

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you oh so very much for your excellent commentary and insights!!!

Concerning the mysterious dimension and mass, I would like to offer an article from one of physicists I have enjoyed following for several years:

Wesson: Five Dimensional Relativity and Two Times

[betty boop]

I hope that extra dimensions are discovered, because it's high time society was dealt another philosophical sockdolager from the world of physics.

Indeed. In fact, I think we're long overdue.

On an earlier post you wrote, in reply to PatrickHenry: "The 'rod' only represents the trajectory of the particle over time. The particle is pointlike and massless. The particle moves through the space as a massless object. The shadow of the particle on the plane moves on the plane as if it had mass."

Fascinating insight, Physicist. It seems the "billiard ball [mechanical] model" of the Universe is increasing shown to be an inadequate explanation.... Thank you so much for writing.

[betty boop]

Thanks so much for the Wesson PDF Alamo-Girl!

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for the ping! Indeed, we are long overdue for a "philosophical sockdolager from the world of physics".

I'm sure you will recognize the Wesson article. His consortium has a track record of questioning the presupposition of Kaluza-Klein compactification of the extra dimensions. I find that particularly refreshing.

[PatrickHenry]

Interesting article (to the extent that I could follow it).

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your reply!

Seems to me that it is much easier (setting the equations to the side) - to get the idea of time-like mass in 4D resulting from a null path in a 5^th dimension rather than trying to wrap one's mind around the many dimensions of M-theory and F-theory.

[TAdams8591]

Bookmarking!

[spunkets]

"The particle moves through the space as a massless object. The shadow of the particle on the plane moves on the plane as if it had mass."

I think it's important to note that, "moving as a massless particle" means the particles are all moving at the same speed(c) in the 3d space of your example. In the projection to a lower d space, the particle speeds vary and are all <= to the fixed 3d speed. It's the appearance of the different velocities in the projection that gives rise to the concept of mass.

[Physicist]

It's the appearance of the different velocities in the projection that gives rise to the concept of mass.

Not quite: it's the resistance to change in velocity that gives rise to the concept of mass.

[spunkets]

"resistance to change in velocity that gives rise to the concept of mass."

Historically, yes-inertia and Newton's 1st law. For the purposes of this example though, massless particles do not rest, they fly at the same speed in a vacuum. The fact that the projection "hides" a componet of their massless velocity and the observed velocity is less and could cover a range from zero, to the vacuum v in the full dimensional space. If massless particles could fly(propagate) at any speed, then the example wouldn't work as intended.

[stremba]

You lose me when it comes to advance theoretical physics, but isn't it possible that we know of ONLY three particle families because we haven't developed particle accelerators capable of imparting sufficient energies to particles to produce a more massive 4th family (or higher) of particles? I assume that any hypothetical fourth family of particles would be more massive than the known three. I am sure it would throw the standard model for a loop, but it is pretty much a consensus view among physicists that the standard model is not a complete theory of elementary particles, isn't it?

[Physicist]

Good question. We have evidence that there are exactly three families of fundamental fermions.

In the lepton sector, there seems to be some sort of physical principle that makes the neutral leptons--the neutrinos--extremely light. If the same rule applies to a 4th generation, we can rule it out, because for one thing, it would distort the Z lineshape in a characteristic way, and for another, we'd see it directly in the anomalous single photon cross section. (That's the probability of seeing an electron-positron collision result in a single, high-energy photon; it's caused by radiation during a neutrino pair-production event.)

So the 4th generation neutrino must be very heavy, and it must be very stable because of lepton number conservation. That in itself runs afoul of cosmological constraints.

In the quark sector, there are two more evidences. First, the Higgs mechanism causes the heaviest quark to become extremely heavy compared to the others. If there's a 4th generation, it becomes hard to explain why the top quark is so heavy.

Second, 4th-generation quarks would violate the unitarity of the Cabibbo-Kobayashi-Maskawa quark-mixing matrix. This is a 3x3 matrix that describes how the various flavors of quarks transform into one another in weak interactions. If there are only three generations, it must be a unitary matrix, which is to say that (for example) the probability of a top quark changing to a bottom quark, plus the probability of it changing to a strange quark, plus the probability of it changing to a down quark, must all add up to 100%. (Similarly for the other quarks.) If there's a 4th generation, these won't always add up to 100%.

We can measure the various CKM matrix elements independently, and the unitarity constraints are getting pretty tight.

So while it's possible that a 4th generation exists--never say never--the cracks in which it can hide are getting awfully thin.

[Matchett-PI]

"It's so refreshing to see a real science at work where direct experimentation is required to test the hypothesis."

Exactly. As opposed to the philosophers and religious philosophy he usually promotes on his profile page, like this:

[1] Discovery Institute's "Wedge Project". Circulates Online by James Still @ Infidels.org

The "scientific qualifications of James Still:

James Still B.A., Philosophy, University of Minnesota - "...helped to build and maintain the Secular Web. ... President of the Internet Infidels from 2000 until 2002. ..Compulsively and deterministically dwells on philosophical problems and issues, ..epistemology, religion......an avid yoga practitioner ... reads widely in Eastern mysticism" , etc., etc., @ Infidels.org

[2] "The Wedge at Work": How Intelligent Design Creationism Is Wedging Its Way into the Cultural and Academic Mainstream by Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. @ Infidels.org

The scientific qualifications of Barbara Forrest:

Barbara Carroll Forrest - B.A., English, Southeastern Louisiana University, 1974 - M.A., Philosophy, Louisiana State University, 1978 - Ph.D., Philosophy, Tulane University, 1988

Teaching positions:

Professor of Philosophy, Southeastern Louisiana University, 2002 - Present
Associate Professor of Philosophy, Southeastern Louisiana University, 1994-2002
Assistant Professor of Philosophy, Southeastern Louisiana University, 1989-1994
Full-time Instructor of Philosophy, Southeastern Louisiana University, 1988-1989
Part-time Instructor in Philosophy, Southeastern Louisiana University, 1981-1988

Among her awards: "Friend of Darwin" Award, National Center for Science Education, March 1998

Conference Presentations [excerpts]:

"A Critical Philosophical Analysis of the Moral Distinction Between Active and Passive Euthanasia," Mid-South Sociological Association, Jackson, MS, November, 1978.

"Methodological Naturalism and Philosophical Naturalism: Clarifying the Connection," and "The Possibility of Meaning in Human Evolution," Science and Society Conference. Russian Academy of Sciences; Institute of the History of Natural Sciences and Technology; Faculty of Philosophy, St. Petersburg State University. St Petersburg, Russia, June 19-25, 1999.

"Methodological Naturalism and Philosophical Naturalism: Clarifying the Connection," at Science and God: A Naturalistic Examination of Cosmology, the Anthropic Principle, and Design Theories. Society of Humanist Philosophers, Raleigh-Durham, North Carolina, September 25-26, 1999.

Lectures/Presentations [excerpts]:

"Creation and Evolution: A Philosophical View of the Concept of Balanced Treatment." Public forum: "Evolution and Creationism in Louisiana Public Schools," SLU, March 31, 1981.

"The Influence of Darwin on 19th- and 20th-Century Culture," Dept. of Biological Sciences, Southeastern Louisiana University, April 21, 1995. ...

Journal Articles [excerpt]: "An Analysis of the Causal Interpretation of Karl Marx's Theory of History," Lamar Journal of the Humanities, Spring 1989.

...Methodological Naturalism and Philosophical Naturalism: Clarifying the Connection," Philo, Fall-Winter 2000.

"The Possibility of Meaning in Human Evolution," Zygon, December 2000.

Etc., etc., @ Infidels.org

Hard Science says, "So what"