Posted on 05/04/2007 1:01:09 PM PDT by stm
You said — I have no solutions, except “Come Lord Jesus”
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You’re right there. I don’t care if you’re talking troop surge or troop tidal wave, there are still not solutions. The Bible is clear that this region is going to *explode* and it will result in the coming Armageddon, no matter what the U.S. does.
So, yes, that’s the only answer, the return of Jesus Christ... and it’s soon...
You said — “In the countryside, Sharia law is being imposed by mullahs who have been “liberated” from their suppression under Saddam’s dictatorship. And the Christians have been mostly driven out of the country.”
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This is why “democracy” is going to fail in Iraq. Islam and democracy are enemies of each other. The one cannot remain in place while the other gains ascendency. They are mutually exclusive of each other...
You said — “Instead of calling for our troops to withdraw, we should be standing on our chairs, shouting and clapping, encouraging them to fight on in this battle and the battles that are to come..................”
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It will take a decade to stabilize that country effectively and drive out the last vestiges of the Islamic terrorism. But, after we go, the religio-fanatical-governmental idealogy that is called Islam will take back over again (if it hasn’t already) and push democracy out and that will be the end of that.
You said — “For all those here who consider stoning to be “barbaric” or “uncivilized,” I’ll remind you that it is a biblically called for punishment for any number of serious crimes including adultery, blasphemy, and disobeying your parents. You know what they say about glass houses and throwing stones.”
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Well.., let’s clear up this problem for you. The Christians are not called upon to do this. If you think that there is something in the Bible that has called upon the Christians to do this — you are sadly mistaken. It doesn’t exist.
For the Jews, that’s another matter. It was definitely a penalty in their day. It is no longer a penalty today, for the Jews.
So, what’s the most you can say about that? Well, that for a period of time, the Jews were commanded to do this (but the Christians were *never* commanded to do this at *any time*, past or present). After that, the Jews no longer did it.
Therefore the “glass house” that you’re talking about doesn’t exist. It did at one time, and was abandoned long ago (the “glass house” of stoning). It never did exist for the Christians.
That glass house, if you’re bringing it up today, is simply a figment of your imagination.
On the other hand, what people are talking about in this thread is something that happens *today* and not two thousand years ago (and only for a small minority of people — versus about 1.2 billion Muslims [although we’re not talking about Muslims in this article, though — but a “practice”]).
Thus, one *can certainly* throw stones and crack all the windows in this house...
Good grief! That’s absolutely terrible!
They’ve got to put an end to that practice *immediately* and throw anyone in jail for life or the death sentence for it. I prayed for her soul, that poor little girl...
I got the Amnesty International information on this, from the video.
AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL
Public Statement
AI Index: MDE 14/027/2007 (Public)
News Service No: 084
27 April 2007
— Iraq: Amnesty International appalled by stoning to death of Yezidi girl and subsequent killings —
Amnesty International is appalled by the killing of Du’a Khalil Aswad, aged about 17, who was stoned to death on or around 7 April 2007 for a so-called honour crime. A member of Iraq’s Yezidi religious minority from the village of Bahzan in northern Iraq, she was killed by a group of eight or nine men and in the presence of a large crowd in the town of Bashika, near the city of Mosul. Some of her relatives are said to have participated in the killing.
Du’a Khalil Aswad’s murder is said to have been committed by relatives and other Yezidi men because she had engaged in a relationship with a Sunni Muslim boy and had been absent from her home for one night. Some reports suggested that she had converted to Islam, but others deny this. Initially, she was reportedly given shelter in the house of a Yezidi tribal leader in Bashika, but her killers stormed the house, took her outside and stoned her to death. Her death by stoning, which lasted for some 30 minutes, was recorded on video film which was then widely distributed and is available on the internet. The film reportedly shows that members of local security forces were present but failed to intervene to prevent the stoning or arrest those responsible.
In an apparent act of retaliation, some 23 Yezidi workers were attacked and killed on 22 April, apparently by members of a Sunni armed group. The Yezidis, reportedly all men, were travelling on a bus between Mosul and Bashika when the vehicle was stopped by gunmen, who made the Yezidis disembark and then summarily killed them.
Amnesty International condemns in the strongest terms both the murder of Du’a Khalil Aswad and the subsequent murders of the Yezidi men, and is calling on the Iraqi authorities to take immediate steps to identify and bring to justice, through fair trials and without recourse to the death penalty, the perpetrators of these killings. As well, the organization is calling on the Iraqi authorities to investigate whether law enforcement officials were present but failed to intervene to prevent Du’a Khalil Aswad’s death by stoning, and to take urgent, concrete measures, including through legislative reforms, to protect those at risk of becoming victims of so-called “honour crimes.”
Background
There are frequent reports of “honour crimes” in Iraq - in particular in the predominantly Kurdish north of the country. Most victims of “honour crimes” are women and girls who are considered by their male relatives and others to have shamed the women’s families by immoral behaviour. Often grounds for such accusations are flimsy and no more than rumour. “Honour crimes” are most often perpetrated by male members of the woman’s family in the belief that such crimes restore their and their family’s honour. While the Kurdish authorities introduced legal reforms to address “honour killings” they have, however, failed to investigate and prosecute those responsible for such crimes. Amnesty International has documented its concerns about Iraqi women victims of human rights violations, including “honour crimes”, in a report issued in February 2005 (Iraq: Decades of suffering-Now women deserve better, AI Index: MDE 14/001/2005, http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE140012005?open&of=ENG-IRQ ).
This page at — http://www.amnestyusa.org/document.php?lang=e&id=ENGMDE140272007
Yes. This is why Saddam - a secular ruler - ruled as a dictator and kept the mullahs suppressed, and didn't allow free elections that would result in fundamentalist rule.
I hate to tell you this, bro, but Islamic terrorism has been around for many decades, and will be around for many decades to come.................crawling under a rock is not the solution. The Jihadists have dipped their toes in American waters, and things will never be the same as they were before.................we have to kill as many of these guys as we can, and no matter how many we kill, it won't be enough.............they are going to keep coming.........we are in this for the long haul, probably until Christ comes.
This is a lot like WWII, it's either kill evil or crawl under a rock...........
:}
The Kurds use smaller and softer rocks when they stone their young women.
What God were those Jews worshiping at the time? Was it the same God you and other Christians worship today, or was it a different God? I will go out on a limb and answer the rest of your post assuming that Christians worship the same God.
Well, that for a period of time, the Jews were commanded to do this (but the Christians were *never* commanded to do this at *any time*, past or present).
For a significant period of time, the Christian God ordered his followers to use this "barbaric" method of execution against individuals for trivial offenses. To believe, therefore, that stoning is barbaric, or that stoning to punish trivial offenses is barbaric, is to believe that the Christian God ordered his people to engage in barbarism as an official practice. Hence, the glass house. If it's barbaric when the Yezidi or the Muslims do it today, then it was barbaric when the Christian God's followers did it in the past under his command.
On the other hand, what people are talking about in this thread is something that happens *today* and not two thousand years ago..
When in time the stoning for a trivial offense occurs has absolutely no bearing on whether or not it is barbaric. The issue here is, can Christians credibly denounce the practice of stoning someone over a trivial offense when their own God once commanded his followers to do the very same thing?
It does in a way. Think what you like. I find it odd, because my post was in response to somone else conversationally.
What’s that, about killing them all and taking their oil? I could not agree more.
It says website cannot be found. I guess it’s been yanked too.
You said — “I find it odd, because my post was in response to somone else conversationally.”
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Well, you shouldn’t find it odd, because this is “open discussion” no matter who you are responding to. If it’s a private response (not meant for public view or discussion), then they have FReep mail for that.
Gee thanks Star Traveler, I don’t post in private unless what I feel I am posting is really private.
But thank you for the advice, I will consider it next time I think you may be Star Traveling my way.
Poof!
You said — “What God were those Jews worshiping at the time? Was it the same God you and other Christians worship today, or was it a different God? I will go out on a limb and answer the rest of your post assuming that Christians worship the same God.”
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It’s the same God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It’s the same holiness and righteousness, that this God (of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) has that pertains for all time. It’s the standard of righteousness that declared *death* to the entire human race (which did not exist for it before), on the basis of sin. And so that standard has not changed. *Death* was declared back then, is declared now and will continue to be declared on the basis of *any* and *all* sin that mankind perpetrates. God knows of *no trivial sin* — there is none that exists. All sin, from the least to the greatest, is deserving of death and will get death — by God’s own declaration.
*That* is the foundational position for Chrisitanity and also for the Jews. They understood that all were under the penalty of death.
We see this in Romans 3:23 — “23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Also we see, Romans 3:5-6 —
5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.)
6 Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world?
Too many times, we want to “justify” ourselves in whatever “small thing” that we may do and put others up on a bigger scale and say, “Well, that’s different, there — that’s a big thing!” No, God says all, from the smallest, very tiniest sin to the greatest is *all deserving of death* — and all will die as a result of their sins.
In Romans 1:28-32 it talks about people who do things which are deserving of death (this is not a complete list, by the way, as all sin is deserving of death as God tells us) — and it also talks about those who “approve” of such things as deserving of death, too.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,
30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;
32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
And in Romans 5:12 — “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—”
And it goes on to say that this applies to all (that is *death* applies to all, as a *judgement* of God), even though all may not have done the same thing as Adam, who introduced sin into the human race.
And again, here in Romans 6:23 — “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
And another in Romans 7:13 — “Has then what is good become death to me? [he’s talking about the “goodness” of the “law”]. Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.”
And so, we see that *death* is proclaimed to all as a judgement from God. And thus, *everyone* is already under that judgement. The “timing” of when that judgement takes place, is totally up to God to determine — at *any time* He chooses and through *whatever* means He chooses. It’s His judgement to carry out *however* He wishes to do it.
So, that’s the *foundational* understanding of what death represents to God and that He has it in His control to dispense it at any time and in any way.
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And then you said — “For a significant period of time, the Christian God ordered his followers to use this “barbaric” method of execution against individuals for trivial offenses. To believe, therefore, that stoning is barbaric, or that stoning to punish trivial offenses is barbaric, is to believe that the Christian God ordered his people to engage in barbarism as an official practice. Hence, the glass house. If it’s barbaric when the Yezidi or the Muslims do it today, then it was barbaric when the Christian God’s followers did it in the past under his command.”
First of all, there are *no trivial offenses* to God. That’s one thing that God makes perfectly clear and that’s why we are *all* currently under the judgement of *death* from God — as we speak today, right here and now.
Now, the other thing to realize is that God has chosen many different ways to implement His judgement and also *His plan* (of “salvation” for that’s His main purpose, besides to also show His perfect love and mercy along with His perfect rightousness and holliness — both *in combination* with each other).
In carrying out His plan and also His judgements, over the period of thousands of years, and also through different peoples (including the Jews and the Christians) — God has “implemented” His righteousness and mercy (i.e., through the “salvation” He has provided) — in different time periods — in different ways.
In fact, the God has told us that He has *not* yet dispensed the *full measure* of His judgement against sin and against all the sins of the past — yet. In fact, it is during the Tribulation period that God does say that He will finally dispense the *full measure* of His wrath and judgement upon the earth and all the peoples for all the sins committed from the past all the way up to that present time.
So, God has actually *withheld* a certain amount of judgement, reserving it to the end. And God has dispensed it in various ways, at those different times in the past, and also with *different peoples*. And as Christians, God *does not* dispense His justice in the same way as He did with the Jews.
Those different time periods are referred to as “dispensations”, in which God carried out his Judgements and justice in different ways, according to *that dispensation* of the time.
For example a sample reference to that would be —
C. I. Scofield states, (THE NEW SCOFIELD STUDY BIBLE, NIV, Oxford Univ. Press., New York, 1967, p. 3):
“A dispensation is a period of time during which man is tested in respect to his obedience to some specific revelation of the will of God.
Three important concepts are implied in this definition:
(1) a deposit of divine revelation concerning God’s will, embodying what God requires of man as to his conduct
(2) man’s stewardship of this divine revelation, in which he is responsible to obey it
(3) a time-period, often called an ‘age,’ during which this divine revelation is dominant in the testing of man’s obedience to God.
The dispensations have been referred to in various ways (by different Bible scholars) but a fair representation of that would be the following dispensations —
Age of Innocence
... of Conscience
... of Human Government
... of the Promise
... of the Mosaic Law
... of Grace (which is our current dispensation, as we speak)
... of final 7-years of Mosaic Law (Tribulation)
... of the Kingdom (when Christ is here for His Millennial Reign on earth)
So, currently we are in the “Age of Grace” (or the Dispensation of Grace), in which this is not the demands of God’s will towards us, in this dispensation, although it was in the former dispensation.
The supreme holiness and righteousness of God remains the same, the same judgement of God is still *death* — but God says that He has held back certain judgement in this time of Grace, but that He will not hold it back indefinitely.
And so, what God does, under His command and commandment, is always righteous and holy — since *He* is the Supreme Judge of the universe and His judgements are never annulled. He can carry out “sentence” of that judgement at any time He wishes and in any manner He wishes. And since He has prescribed these various “dispensations” in order to carry out His supreme will in carrying through His plan until the end, which involves His chosen method of salvation — that’s why we have that happening in an age past (another dispensation) while we don’t now (in our current dispensation of Grace).
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Finally, you said — “When in time the stoning for a trivial offense occurs has absolutely no bearing on whether or not it is barbaric. The issue here is, can Christians credibly denounce the practice of stoning someone over a trivial offense when their own God once commanded his followers to do the very same thing?”
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First of all, we have dispensed with the word “trivial” when it comes to sin. It doesn’t exist in that context of sin. There is *no trivial sin* — anywhere — in God’s sight. And then, *all sin* deserves *death* — period!
So, in answer to your question of whether we can call it barbaric, yes — definitely so. That’s because we are not in that dispensation when God commanded and ordered people to do according to His law. The judgement of God is righteous and God can order it carried out any way He wishes at any time. This is the way He has ordered it and we are currently in the Age of Grace.
You see, it’s not the Jews who were ordering it, it wasn’t (or today, isn’t) the Christians who were ordering it — it was *God Himself* who was ordering it.
What we see — now and today — is simply a group of men ordering it on their own. *That* is what is barbaric and illegal (according to the law of God, in the dispensation that we are in, which is *now* the “Age of Grace”). It’s not *according to God* — but rather — it is *against God* to do this.
So, it is barbaric, because it stems from “man’s own sin nature” to do this (as those in the Mosul area did) — and not from the Holy and Righteous command of God to do this. And we *have no righteous command* of God to do this in the *Age of Grace* — not at all and Christians *never* did have that command.
Your *misunderstanding* — of — who God is, of the judgement of death that He has pronounced upon *all*, that He can carry out His judgement at any time and in any fashion that He so will, and that we are *currently* in the “Age of Grace” — has all contributed to your mistaken statements.
You said — “I could care less if it’s in the old Testament or not, it’s still barbaric. And the Middle Eastern people are barbarians. The birth of our Savior and the new Testament came about to eliminate many of the hateful, barbaric ways of the Old Testament. Notice no mention of the Code of Hammurabi in the New Testament?”
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Note my post #79. We do have the same God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and those were *righteous* judgements of God. Note the reference to the “dispensations” and that we are currently in the dispensation or “Age of Grace”. That’s what you’re referring to now — in terms of our “Lord and Savior”.
But, you don’t throw out the God of the Old Testament to do it. You simply *understand* the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and understand the “dispensations” that He has ordered upon this earth...
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