Posted on 12/09/2023 11:22:26 AM PST by Mariner
“There was a 2nd world war because the 1st world war did not get settled properly.”
The question is why? Is it because Versailles was fundamentally flawed ab initio? Or, was the problem in its application and enforcement? THAT argument has been going on for over a hundred years. The main point is that GERMANY didn’t think it (the War) was settled properly. And these things often come down to just one party believing it got screwed; and that party wants redress.
“Besides military cooperation (force), the most important element of the alliance is INTEL cooperation. That has paid dividends over the decades. “
This is correct.
Five Eyes and MI6 were very helpful to the DC Regime in spying on the Trump Campaign, and creating the Trump-Russia smear.
I’m already voting for him, you don’t need to sell me.
There’s a whole lot of deadbeat countries most of us have ZERO interest in defending.
Until our border is fixed and our people are prosperous again, NATO can walk off the stage. If there’s a problem we can loot at it on it’s own merits. If other countries are pulling their own weight then it’s worth considering staying.
Short of that it’s nothing more than one more form of corruption dragging our country down. How many ‘speeches’ by are ‘elties’ are given in the countries that aren’t keepin their word to our country? And is the Big Guy getting his cut?
“Tripwires. The heir to the throne of Austria-Hungary was killed by a Serbian so Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia. And then Serbia’s ally Russia declared war on Austria-Hungary. ...”
The alliances turned a small Balkan war into a continental war.
The NeoCons want to use NATO to turn a war over the borders of the Donbass into a global war
We could aim for strategic autarchy but just about no one bloviating about withdrawing from NATO has any idea what that would entail. First, without disengaging from foreign economic dependencies on everything from oil to manufactured goods it's meaningless if we are immediately subject to economic blackmail. Second, it would mean not downsizing our military but rebuilding the infrastructure to house them here, building CONUS air defense, etc., plus acquiring the assets to move them back overseas should the need arise. Do you have any idea how hard and expensive these measures would be?
The Ron Paul claim that "if we just stop meddling, no one will attack us" is just the right-wing version of virtue signaling, as though protestations of our good intent are enough to deter predators like Russia and China. The international equivalent of a gun-free zone. Laughable.
My main complaint with the internationalist foreign policy establishment is that they set maximal goals with minimal effort: that is always doomed to failure. Could we have imposed functioning democratic governments in Iraq and Afghanistan? Sure: but would have required the ruthless extermination of probably at least 25% of the population. And the bigger question was always, What for? US security interests were secured in Afghanistan by removing the Taliban and maintaining a minimal footprint. Bush's desire to impose a strong central government that no Afghan wanted simply caused the insurgency to grow, just like the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul in the late 70s, even before the Russian invasion. Same in Iraq: the original plan was simply to install a Baath-lite general with the Iraqi army to restore order. Unfortunately the Iraqi army completely disintegrated and Bush put the morons at State in charge of "democracy promotion." Those morons were also responsible for the Afghanistan "withdrawal" (i.e., rout): every time some reporter asked the US military what was going on they said, "ask State." This was followed by a policy of "gradual escalation" in terms of arming Ukraine, which simply gave the Russians time to build fortifications and enlarge their army. Idiocy.
And the notion that Trump would simply pull out of NATO is just a combination of left-wing propaganda and right-wing fantasy. Same with Ukraine. He would try to negotiate a peace with Russia, but he would see selling out Ukraine as loss for the US and would never agree to do it. So I would guess he would suggest a deal that would cause considerable pain to both sides and if Russia refused he would seriously increase the pressure. That's Trumps style, he would never negotiate from a position of weakness.
The USA should not go defend countries that refuse to prepare to defend themselves.
There's a whole lot of deadbeat countries most of us have ZERO interest in defending.
Until our border is fixed and our people are prosperous again, NATO can walk off the stage. If there's a problem we can look at it on it's own merits. If other countries are pulling their own weight then it's worth considering staying. Maybe...
Short of that it's nothing more than one more form of corruption dragging our country down. How many 'speeches' by our 'elties' are given in the countries that aren't keeping their word to our country? And is the Big Guy getting his cut?
“The only ally we’ve had that has been worth a damn was the Soviets. Their determination to erase the scourge of Nazism off the face of the earth saved the day.”
Nice try, Frick. The Soviet Union was Nazi Germany’s ALLY in 1939, which made WWII possible: While Germany invaded Poland from the west, the Soviet Union invaded Poland from the east.
Yeah, that “paragon of virtue,” the Soviet Union; the same Soviet Union that MURDERED thousands of Polish POWS then had the gall to blame the Nazis for the crime!
“PP on that Churchill/Zelensky stuff you floated a year ago.”
Post it, Frick. Not only have you claimed you have recently sent a link to that non-existent post; you also claim to know exactly when that non-existent post was...posted! So, it should be very easy for you to post that link, right here, right now, on this thread.
You started this game, Frick.
Save Europe
From Stalin communism
Reintroduce it Back
To Russia
Via nazi dnc ukraine
Patton was right
Soviet nato is the enemy now again
how many times has russia invaded europe?
how many times has europe invaded russia?
“...disengaging from foreign economic dependencies on everything from oil to manufactured goods ...”
How is this a disadvantage ?
Can we get NATO to close our southern border?
“Second, it would mean not downsizing our military but rebuilding...”
I’m getting the impression that the “disadvantages” of isolationism are:
-rebuilding the manufacturing base
-using the military to actually defend your own country and its borders
-not being pulled into overseas wars in Europe
Have I got this right ?
You’re a liar pal.
The article was to trick people into believing Trump would do this because it’s a crazy idea.
And here is the kook quisling brigade to support it.
Then again I know every one of you opposes Trump.
No fear here.
Just hope.
You're a propagandist pal
Have you read the NATO charter? It obligates NO member to employ military force; it just obligates the members to respond as they best see fit, up to and including the use of force.
The pertinent clause:
From Article V:
(In case of an attack upon a member state), “...each member state is to assist by taking ‘such action as [the member state] deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.’”
NATO works because of the THREAT of using force in defense. If Russia (or any belligerent) thinks that threat is hollow, then a European conflagration is all but assured. Because aggression is forever hungry, and needs constant feeding.
So to be realistic what we would wind up with is vulnerability to economic blackmail and a military too small to defend ourselves.
We'd wind up like Europe.
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