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F-16 Pilots Considered Ramming Flight 93
Aviation Week's Aviation Now ^ | September 9, 2002 | William B. Scott

Posted on 09/09/2002 4:50:26 PM PDT by hc87

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To: Lessismore
How do we find out if they were unarmed? According to this account, none of the jets mentioned were carrying munitions. Regardless, the pilots performed admirably under terribly difficult circumstances.
21 posted on 09/09/2002 7:51:07 PM PDT by airborne
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To: Poohbah
It was quite a bad spot.

Atleast have fighters armed, for crying out loud! What really hurts is the fact that as a result those men were willing to RAM a hijacked plane.

Why must brave men be put in such situations?
22 posted on 09/09/2002 8:27:38 PM PDT by hchutch
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To: VaBthang4
A 1/2 second squirt of ball ammo in the engines would leave the airliner powerless.
23 posted on 09/09/2002 10:04:49 PM PDT by B4Ranch
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To: Tuco-bad
Wonder why it took so long to scramble jets at Andrews.

Short answer: the only fighters there are National Guard and Marine Corps Reserve units. Additionally, there were no aircraft "cocked and locked" because our overall air defense readiness was tied to Russian bomber operational readiness.

24 posted on 09/10/2002 4:26:10 AM PDT by Poohbah
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To: Poohbah
Short answer: the only fighters there are National Guard and Marine Corps Reserve units. Additionally, there were no aircraft "cocked and locked" because our overall air defense readiness was tied to Russian bomber operational readiness.

Guess they couldn't even have sent unarmed planes to try and distract the hijackers.

BTW - Where did all our $trillions over the years for national defense go?

25 posted on 09/10/2002 6:36:51 AM PDT by Tuco-bad
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To: Tuco-bad
Where did all our $trillions over the years for national defense go?

Social Engineering. Berets made in China, that had to be re-ordered. Pork pet projects of Senators.

OTOH, one AIM-9R costs about $84,000, one AMRAAM about $386,000, one tomahawk is $500,000 today, and that's the cheap stuff.

26 posted on 09/10/2002 7:23:32 AM PDT by jae471
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To: hc87
Thanks for the post, hc.
27 posted on 09/10/2002 7:50:29 AM PDT by Balata
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To: Kennard
Isn't there a military code, something like hot pursuit, where you can just do what needs to be done?

Normally there would be a set of Rules of Engagement (ROE), if we were anticipating some sort of conflict. Prior to 9-11, rightly or wrongly, we weren't expecting this sort of thing.

28 posted on 09/10/2002 8:22:49 AM PDT by TankerKC
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To: Tuco-bad
Guess they couldn't even have sent unarmed planes to try and distract the hijackers.

When someone is hell-bent on crashing a plane into a geographically fixed point, distraction ain't gonna work.

BTW - Where did all our $trillions over the years for national defense go?

Breast cancer research. Environmental cleanup. Stupid peacekeeping missions in Bosnia, Kosovo, and every other worthless s**thole where our national interests were not (and still aren't) at stake. Acquisition programs where we paid for everything up to and including production tooling (i.e., the really expensive stuff) and then terminated the program to "save money" (i.e., not very much money) by not building the hardware.

We're now looking at the price tag. The 82nd Airborne no longer has an organic armor battalion--the M8 Buford light tank was intended to replace the M551 Sheridan in the airborne armor role, but it got cancelled literally AFTER the last minute (United Defense still has a complete Buford factory, gathering dust and rust). The F-22 Raptor and RAH-66 Comanche were stretched out so far during the Clinton years that our ability to actually produce these aircraft--computer hardware that was bleeding edge when these aircraft went into RDT&E is now obsolete and going out of production unless we ramp up orders NOW. The Navy is headed to a point below the 300-ship mark unless we start building new ships right now. Clinton expended almost our entire stockpile of PGMs during Operation Allied Farce, and never ordered sufficient replacements.

29 posted on 09/10/2002 8:27:03 AM PDT by Poohbah
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To: Poohbah
When someone is hell-bent on crashing a plane into a geographically fixed point, distraction ain't gonna work.

So are you are saying that our air defense did right by merely watching from the ground Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon?

30 posted on 09/10/2002 8:53:47 AM PDT by Tuco-bad
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To: Tuco-bad
So are you are saying that our air defense did right by merely watching from the ground Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon?

No, I'm saying that the only way you were going to stop that bird was to have the interceptor pilot ram it.

I'm not the sort of guy to sit in a comfy command and control bunker and tell some young hotshot to commit suicide. I'd have to strap on an airplane and do it myself.

31 posted on 09/10/2002 8:56:55 AM PDT by Poohbah
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To: Poohbah
I'm not the sort of guy to sit in a comfy command and control bunker and tell some young hotshot to commit suicide. I'd have to strap on an airplane and do it myself.

No one is telling any pilot to commit suicide.

What we are saying is DO something, distraction, etc., rather than watch Flight 77 hit the Penatagon.

32 posted on 09/10/2002 8:59:47 AM PDT by Tuco-bad
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To: Tuco-bad
No one is telling any pilot to commit suicide.

The mission is to stop Flight 77 from hitting the Pentagon. There's only one thing that will work in the absence of armed airrcaft, and that's ramming.

What we are saying is DO something, distraction, etc., rather than watch Flight 77 hit the Penatagon.

"Doing something" in the name of looking like you're doing something is exactly what got us 9/11. We could--and should--have been serious about terrorism since 1993. We weren't; Clinton engaged in vigorous yet purposeless activity for eight years.

You need to do something effective. And in that case, if I were in tactical command at Andrews, and I knew that a plane was inbound towards the DC area, target unknown but undoubtedly of high value, I would have strapped on an unarmed F-16 and gone hunting. And I would have rammed Flight 77.

33 posted on 09/10/2002 9:09:53 AM PDT by Poohbah
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To: Poohbah
You need to do something effective. And in that case, if I were in tactical command at Andrews, and I knew that a plane was inbound towards the DC area, target unknown but undoubtedly of high value, I would have strapped on an unarmed F-16 and gone hunting. And I would have rammed Flight 77.

And yet you support the decision to do NOTHING, which is what was done about Flight 77.

Sounds inconsistant to me.

34 posted on 09/10/2002 9:20:07 AM PDT by Tuco-bad
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To: Tuco-bad
And yet you support the decision to do NOTHING, which is what was done about Flight 77.

Read up on the kamikazes. Many pilots were approached, few accepted. The ones who didn't accept the mission were never criticized by the program's backers--because that decisionw was correctly viewed as a very personal one, with no predetermined "correct" answer. It required a lot of soul-searching on the part of the prospective kamikaze pilot.

Sounds inconsistant to me.

No, it's an understanding that you really can't morally order someone to do something like that.

You have a choice to either (a) do nothing and hope you can get armed aircraft up in time, or (b) go out and gain entrance to Valhalla on one's own hook through glorious self-sacrifice.

I'm not going to speak ill of the guy who doesn't go for Option B. It's an intensely personal decision. And I'm not going to speak ill of a guy who doesn't go for a PR-related action to LOOK like he's doing something.

35 posted on 09/10/2002 9:30:06 AM PDT by Poohbah
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To: Tuco-bad
"BTW - Where did all our $trillions over the years for national defense go"?

Why it all went to building "HAARP",of course...<=========Sarcasm
The HAARP (High frequency Active Auroral Research Program) transmitter is operated jointly by the U.S. Navy, Air Force and several universities and is located in Gakona, eastern Alaska.(But that's a whole other ball of wax.)LOL

36 posted on 09/10/2002 9:45:03 AM PDT by Pagey
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To: hc87
White House scrambled fighters with little or no armament.

Doesn't the knowledge that this is being broadcast to the entire world make everyone just a little more secure? /sarcasm

37 posted on 09/10/2002 9:46:58 AM PDT by dubyagee
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To: hc87
The other two "Vipers" only had a full load of 20-mm. "ball" or training rounds, not the high-explosive incendiary (HEI) bullets required for combat, and no air-to-air missiles.

I don't believe two planeloads of ball won't bring down a passenger liner. Shoot up the cockpit area and it'll come down. A 20mm bullet doesn't have to blow up to hurt.

38 posted on 09/10/2002 9:50:01 AM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: Poohbah
And yet you support the decision to do NOTHING, which is what was done about Flight 77.

Read up on the kamikazes.

I never advocated that our F-16 pilots be kamikazes.

I said repeatly that they might have been able to distract the hijackers.

39 posted on 09/10/2002 10:33:05 AM PDT by Tuco-bad
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To: hc87
bump
40 posted on 09/10/2002 10:39:07 AM PDT by VOA
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