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How the 6th Century Church handled Sex Abuse (warning: graphic)
The Chronicle of John Malalas

Posted on 05/01/2005 11:57:54 AM PDT by Antoninus

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To: scubandym
Be not afraid. Have hope!

Of course, you're right, which is a very good start for a first time poster and future Priest.

May God's blessings be great for you. May he give you courage, and a stout heart.

I'm reading a book right now, that I'd like to recommend, if it's not too presumptuous. The book is called Man, The Saint, by Fr. J. Urteaga Loidi, and I have the sense that you would like it, and that it would inspire you.

God bless you in your vocation.

21 posted on 05/01/2005 2:44:35 PM PDT by AlbionGirl
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To: AlbionGirl

What do you like about Man, The Saint, by Fr. J. Urteaga Loidi?


22 posted on 05/01/2005 2:47:14 PM PDT by scubandym (Check out my website at scubandym.nexuswebs.net)
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To: scubandym
Hi Andrew, and welcome to FR. The university information is interesting and after you double-check to make sure there is no misunderstanding (I know, but check anyway)send a calm, factual letter to the Bishop, cc it to the Papal Legate in Washington DC, and to the Holy Father. Emphasis your desire to be in communion with the teaching of Jesus and your fear that some students might be lead astray. Pictures might be helpful, like of the office or any rallies they hold.

Thank you for your courage.

23 posted on 05/01/2005 2:48:40 PM PDT by pbear8 (Navigatrix, TTGC, Ladies Aux)
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To: Antoninus

Excellent post!! Good find!!


24 posted on 05/01/2005 2:50:36 PM PDT by Claud
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To: pbear8

I will continue to monitor what happens at the University of Detroit Mercy. I live on campus and we are looking at different responses to the schools activities. We are working on starting a Cardinal Newman Society on campus first, collecting a strong case and then going to the Church authorities when we have student, faculty, parent, and alumni support.

What do you think?


25 posted on 05/01/2005 2:54:19 PM PDT by scubandym (Check out my website at scubandym.nexuswebs.net)
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To: Kolokotronis; kosta50; Agrarian

Orthodox PING!

And a most blessed Pascha to you all as well. Christ is risen!


26 posted on 05/01/2005 2:57:56 PM PDT by Claud
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To: scubandym
I think you should contact the Cardinal Newman Society now. The leadership in the US is running scared right now. They know a German Shepherd is on the Throne.

Did you see that Egan "deCatholized" a college in NY just last week? (CNS email - "Thank you everyone who participated in Cardinal Newman Society's protest against Hillary Clinton's commencement address and honorary degree at Marymount Manhattan College! Your actions have led to a just outcome and will send a strong message to other wayward Catholic colleges")

The bishops don't want bad behavior in their diocese reported to Rome, so he might act on his own, or might desire the backing of Rome.

27 posted on 05/01/2005 3:11:24 PM PDT by pbear8 (Navigatrix, TTGC, Ladies Aux)
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To: Ambrose II
"If it causes you to sin cut if off." ?

Yup...

And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. --Matthew 5:30 (KJV)
So, WWJD?
For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. --Matthew 19:12 (KJV)
Why aren't all priests eunuchs?
28 posted on 05/01/2005 3:22:31 PM PDT by Gondring (Pretend you don't know me...I'm in the WPPFF.)
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To: scubandym

Andrew,

Your experiences will bear great fruit in your ability to be an authentic witness to the gospel of Jesus Christ. I have a similar hope for myself. May we someday be co-workers in our Father's vineyard.


29 posted on 05/01/2005 3:23:00 PM PDT by SaintThomasMorePrayForUs
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To: scubandym
It's a book about the courage necessary to live a life totally dedicated to our Lord. The book was written in 1959, and here is the Publisher's (Roman Catholic Books) Note:

Fr. J. Urteaga Loidi, a man of wide experience in the direction of souls, was a Doctor of Law of the University of Madrid and a Doctor of Theology of the Lateran Pontifical University of Rome in the mid-20th century.

Man, the Saint was his first book. Mgr. Palazzini, the Secretary to the Sacred Congregation of the Concil, made the following remark in L'Osservatore Romano, the Vatican newspaper:

This invasion of human passion in the apologetic literature of our time is nothing new; we can refer to Peguy, Bloy, Mounier and Papini. But this book by J. Urteaga Loidi is a different phenomenon: theological knowledge without dangerous dilettantism, fury full of hope, a sense of conviction which has no pride in it for it is founded on faithfulness to the See of Peter, a humanity which ins not humanistic, vitality which makes one realize from the beginning that the author is no mere 'litterateur.'

One sees the author now as the theologian, now as the man of wide secular culture, now as the man in the street. His book is made to be tasted little by little, like a strong drink...More than a book, it is a 'discorso' about the Christian the Church needs today.

Additionally, the forward, written by Raimondo Spiazzi, O.P., Rector of the Pontifical Pastoral Institute of the Lateran University notes the following: Especially for young people who are generous and pure this book is an appeal to them to give everything for the great cause; assured that to give everything is the only way to gain everything, to conquer themselves and the world.

Perhaps, though I shouldn't have recommended it. I'm in no way capable of offering spiritual advise, so maybe before reading it, you should discuss it with your Priest.

30 posted on 05/01/2005 3:29:47 PM PDT by AlbionGirl
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To: AlbionGirl

WOW it looks really cool!!! Thank you for telling me about it! I wonder if they have it on Amazon...

Never feel shy about recommending books! You don't have to have a PhD to give good advice. In fact I know a number of Jesuits who have PhD's and give terrible spiritual reading advice. ;)


31 posted on 05/01/2005 3:38:56 PM PDT by scubandym (Check out my website at scubandym.nexuswebs.net)
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To: Claud; Kolokotronis
Thanks for the best wishes on Pascha. Not a particularly Paschal subject, but an interesting tidbit.

In general, the Orthodox church has long opposed mutilation and even death as punishments for anything.

This article notwithstanding, I am unaware of any canons, ancient or modern, that would prescribe such a punishment.

Secular law certainly can do what it wills, and rulers of the Christian Roman Empire often felt that they needed sometimes to take very stern measures to keep order in their realms. The relationship between church and state in the Eastern Roman Empire in particularly is often misunderstood. The Christian emperors correctly recognized that Christianity brought health, and paganism brought sickness and disorder. Later Christian emperors recognized that heretical Christianity also brought disorder and sickness, and thus placed a high priority on encouraging the Church to discern true doctrine and to teach it.

They sometimes used stern measures to suppress heretics -- not because the Church canons directed them to do so, but because they viewed it as an application of civil means to achieve civil benefits. The same might have been true from time to time with regard to moral conduct. Obviously a church hierarchy given to homosexuality and pederasty would make for an unhealthy church, and thus an unhealthy populace.

But the rulers would be acting on their own initiative, applying civil punishments at their discretion to punish perversions of the church's moral teachings.

This might seem like a fine distinction, but I think that it is an important one. One of the reasons why we Orthodox Christians pray for our civil rulers numerous times in every cycle of services, no matter how ungodly or pious they are, is that the Church recognizes that by definition, secular rulers have a more difficult path to salvation because they have to do things to keep order in the realms given to them by God that are not conducive to spiritual growth: killing people, depriving people of property, depriving them of liberty... -- even if those people "deserve it," it is still not good for the soul of the one carrying out those punishments.

32 posted on 05/01/2005 4:28:51 PM PDT by Agrarian
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To: Gondring

Why aren't all priests eunuchs?

because they don't need to be...to my knowledge none of the apostles were eunuchs yet they were faithful servants of Christ...

IMHO, the issue of eunuchs is along the same lines as unmarried priests...some can remain unmarried and some cannot yet both are acceptable as there is no doctrine denying a married priest...Being a eunuch is not a sole determinate to being a dedicated servant of Christ but can be good for those who do so for the sake of Heaven as is stated...


33 posted on 05/01/2005 5:54:04 PM PDT by phatus maximus (blah, blah, blah....)
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To: Antoninus

The New Testament doesn't authorize the use of violent force to compel obedience to the law of Christ by those who choose not to accept it.


34 posted on 05/01/2005 5:58:07 PM PDT by Sloth (I don't post a lot of the threads you read; I make a lot of the threads you read better.)
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To: Sloth

Didn't stop the Church, did it? :-)


35 posted on 05/01/2005 6:04:55 PM PDT by Gondring (Pretend you don't know me...I'm in the WPPFF.)
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To: phatus maximus

You're saying that they are "unable" to become eunuchs? Since if they are not "unable" then how do you reconcile it with Matthew 19:12, which says of castration: "He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."

Augustine contorted himself quite amazingly to try to twist the meaning of this verse. Note that Origen, the church father, did follow the verse and castrate himself... but I think most ignore this Scripture these days.


36 posted on 05/01/2005 6:33:04 PM PDT by Gondring (Pretend you don't know me...I'm in the WPPFF.)
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To: Agrarian
This article notwithstanding, I am unaware of any canons, ancient or modern, that would prescribe such a punishment.

Good catch. You'll notice that it was "Victor, the city prefect" who investigated the claims and administered the punishment. This office was a civic authority, not religious. Where the ambiguity appeared was with the office of the "most pious emperor" who was both a civic and a religious authority. He may have had no direct say on what was in the canons, but he could exercise a decisive amount of direct pressure on the bishops. Furthermore, he could promulgate laws that had a direct impact on the Church and religious life--as the law enacted by Justinian above one did.

As a poster above mentioned, castration by civic authorities would probably not be tolerated in this day and age. However, throwing priestly and episcopal abusers into the general populations at prisons would probably have a similar effect. This needs to happen a lot more often--and probably would if our civic authorities weren't often complicit with the abusers.
37 posted on 05/01/2005 6:53:56 PM PDT by Antoninus (Benedictus qui venit in nomine Domini, Hosanna in excelsis!)
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To: Sloth
The New Testament doesn't authorize the use of violent force to compel obedience to the law of Christ by those who choose not to accept it.

I agree. I'm posting this a matter of general interest, not for the purpose of endorsing the punishment. Besides, please note that it was the civic authority that inflicted this punishment, not the religious.
38 posted on 05/01/2005 6:55:55 PM PDT by Antoninus (Benedictus qui venit in nomine Domini, Hosanna in excelsis!)
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To: Gondring
Didn't stop the Church, did it? :-)

The Church didn't carry out the investigations or the punishments. They were done by the civic authority.
39 posted on 05/01/2005 6:57:46 PM PDT by Antoninus (Benedictus qui venit in nomine Domini, Hosanna in excelsis!)
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To: Antoninus

True -- I saw that when I read the text, but the title implies otherwise.


40 posted on 05/01/2005 7:15:44 PM PDT by Sloth (I don't post a lot of the threads you read; I make a lot of the threads you read better.)
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