The two destroyers...
Posted on 11/02/2023 1:31:26 PM PDT by ebb tide
So are people in hell.
Everyone is alive somewhere so that kind of justification or rationalization is ludicrous.
Anyone without an agenda of justifying their unscriptural religious practices recognizes the ordinary fact that when people talk about not contacting the dead, it means that people physically alive here on earth are prohibited from contacting those people who have physically died and are physically no longer alive here on earth.
Also the argument that people praying to *saints* in heaven is not asking them for anything but rather asking them to intercede to God for them is demonstrably false.
There are a plethora of Catholic prayers to dead people Catholics call saints that can be found online with a simple google search that prove that to be untrue.
Catholics ask those dead people to do things for them all the time.
It's like they think they can get something out of them easier than they can get something out of God.
Like the *saints* would go outside the will of God for a person.
It's a shame Catholics don't trust God enough to answer their prayers Himself, like He promised He would do for us, that they are afraid to go to Him with their needs and requests.
My dad (Protestant) used to “talk” to his parents. He didn’t go into detail, just mentioned it. I didn’t take it as praying, but I guess it might be considered that. Now that he and my mom are gone I think it is a little odd to be “talking” with them, the thought never crossed my mind. Although there are times when “I wonder what my old man would do in this situation?”
Just awhile ago our pastor said something like “And I know that it is a nice image to have that our loved ones are looking down on us and seeing how we are doing. Pretty sure though, if they are in Heaven, their attention is fixed on God and praising Him.”
I’ve also wondered, if Heaven is Holy and perfect and joyful, how could a parent look down on their child going through hard times, willfully ignoring or going against God, etc.? I suppose as they know that God wins in the end, but still. I imagine that those in Heaven, except for the angels and God, can’t see what is happening on earth.
The destruction of Catholicism goes back way further than Vatican 2
Vatican 2 didn't write itself nor establish itself as Catholic policy. Someone wrote it and someone had to vote to approve it.
Vatican 2 is as much a symptom of the destruction of Catholicism is as Francis is. Neither is the cause of the problems. The problems already endemic within Catholicism are what permitted both of them to be established in the first place.
Catholics tend to get the cart before the horse in many judgments about moral or theological issues. These aren't the only ones.
When the apostles asked Jesus to teach them to pray, He gave them the Lord’s prayer and taught them to pray to the FATHER.
NOTHING about *praying* to anyone else.
Hail Mary
Full of grace
The Lord is with Thee
Blessed art Thou among women
And blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus
Holy Mary, Mother of God
Pray for us sinners
Now and in the hour of our death.
Amen
Go away, Daniel. In the name of God.
Nah; they just get a different horse to pull the worn out wagon.
Details...
Holy Cow. Is that all you’ve got to defend praying to the dead?
Neither is the cause of the problems. The problems already endemic within Catholicism are what permitted both of them to be established in the first place.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Well metmom, since you obviously consider yourself to be very knowledgeable concerning those “endemic” problems, don’t be coy, please share your soul-saving knowledge with me and the hundreds of millions of other deluded Catholic and Orthodox folks who are now on the road to hell!
Why change the subject?
If you disagree with the cause and effect scenario, why?
And if the problems weren’t endemic in Catholicism, how did V2 and the current pope become established?
After all, it was Catholic hierarchy that was responsible for both of them. If the hierarchy was as straight on as y’all claim, then where did V2 and Francis come from and how were they established in Catholicism?
They WERE voted in, right?
Hmmmm, that sounds like you think you are performing an exorcism.
Is that what you are doing?
I am curious what the Holy Spirit's role might be when people pray to anyone but God.
It would seem that praying to Mary to intercede on our behalf ignores or replaces the Holy Spirit.
Talking to a wall and an imposter sitting in the Chair of Peter.
Interesting question.
Who was duly elected according to Catholic protocol by your college of cardinals. What does that say about THEM?
You all have far more issues in your hierarchy than just Francis. How far down the ranks it goes is anyone’s guess, but based on precedent........
In Mt 25, Jesus says, "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." He here draws a clear distinction between those who are alive in God in heaven, and those who are suffering "eternal punishment" in hell.
Only those who are engaged in justifying their unscriptural departures from the authentic Christian faith would miss something so obvious.
Anyone without an agenda of justifying their unscriptural religious practices recognizes the ordinary fact that when people talk about not contacting the dead, it means that people physically alive here on earth are prohibited from contacting those people who have physically died and are physically no longer alive here on earth.
So Jesus, when he spoke to at the Transfiguration, was either sinning or just setting a really, really bad example for us?
And when Hebrews 12:1 says the saints surround us as "a cloud of witnesses," we're prohibited from asking for their intercession?
It's like they think they can get something out of them easier than they can get something out of God.
As usual, your argument descends into objections that are equally "valid" as attacks on intercessory prayer in general. But since intercessory prayer is clearly taught in the NT and clearly practiced and encouraged by the apostles, you are stuck arguing something that is clearly contrary to Scripture.
Didn't Paul know that he could go directly to God? Why does he ask people to pray for him? (Ephesians 6:19 and elsewhere)
The root issue here is that the church, as a supernatural reality, is not in your "Just Jesus and me" solipsistic theology. But that's not in the Bible. The Bible says that the Church is the Bride of Christ, the Body of Christ, the pillar and ground of the truth, and was created directly by Christ and gifted with his promise that the gates of hell should not overcome it. That means, among other things, that the church is just as alive in heaven as she is on earth, and the bonds of charity which connect her members are not divided by death. "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"
So Jesus, when he spoke to Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration, was either sinning or just setting a really, really bad example for us?
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