Free Republic

it isn’t but I’ll bet they’ll have a field day with it today!

You might get together with other “efficient” smaller counties like your own and do nothing illegal...except to just not report your numbers until the traditionally Democrat lagging counties report their numbers first. The Demo counties that are always late in their counts are waiting for you smaller counties’ numbers first so they know how many fraud votes they need to manufacture to cheat with.

Kudo’s to you and your election team for running a good tight ship and getting the voting counts done early and the numbers reported early so everybody goes home at a decent hour. Too bad you were chumps in letting the late vote counties cheat you. There is nothing wrong with holding back vote numbers until the traditionally “late” counties report their final numbers first. If the screaming starts...be calm about it and simply say...Atlanta and surrounding counties like Fulton...you guys report first AND THEN AND ONLY THEN we will report ours!”

A few congressional races ago, a local county did just that, they held back final numbers and only reported them after all the other votes in the district were collected, the Pubbie won but you should have heard the screaming from the Democrats. The votes were legitimate but the Democrats couldn’t come up with any more illegitimate votes without looking like they were cheating. I read of a Judge race in Wisconsin where a similar thing happened where additional votes were reported the next day by a lady election official that gave the race to a Pubbie. The votes were legitimate but the Democrats had had to guess how may cheat votes to put in. When the last votes were put in by the county in question they recounted but the Dems couldn’t put in any more cheat votes without being exposed. The Pubbie was given the victory.

But what of this Man that Paul put under judgment that his body be destroyed by Satan so that his Spirit would be saved in the Day of the Lord. I supposed we could also consider him one of the righteous who were scarcely saved?

My responses were not of Ravi per se but about the comments regarding how people can lose their salvation, period. It is harder than what many seem to be surmising judging by this thread.

Before we bring the big guns out in terms of pronouncing this Christian or that Christian worthy of having lost their Salvation, consider what Paul and the Holy Spirit did to try and bring an errant one back from spiritual apostacy...

Please note verse 5.(this isn’t necessarily directed at you Elsie). Apparently Christ and the Spirit can take some extreme measures before declaring an erring Christian irretrievably plucked out of the Olive tree. Certain Human Christians seem ready to damn the whole lot of Christians who have been imperfect in their walk with God without considering what the Holy Spirit might do himself to bring such poor misfits back from the edge of perdition.

1 Corinthians 5:It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? 3 For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. 4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Consider also this passage...1 Corinthians 3:10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

The context refers to both those who lay foundations of faith in people’s lives and those who build upon them(pastors and teachers) and one’s personal self building of works of faith and righteousness upon the foundation of Christ that has been laid in each of us.(self accountability for the good work that was begun in us that another passage says will continue until completed in the day of resurrection)

My point is people may drift irretrievably away but not before Christ via the Spirit gets in their face. People won’t just be allowed to just take themselves back from God without a fight. Some might just end up being killed phycially rather than God letting that happen. Some Christians may find that all their works may be completely burned up but at least Christ won’t be burned up inside of them. That is the assurance of our faith.

Consider 1 John2:19-23 “19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

These people who appear to lose their Salvation are described in 1 John 2. They were never part of us to begin with. It’s really that simple. If you are truly saved you abide in him even when you screw up and have to come crawling back to the light and have your sins reproved by the light...you’ll endure the reproval because you know that only Christ has the means of eternal life. If you aren’t saved in the first place, you’ll never come crawling back.

“This making of mistakes”...these are the committing of sins...right?

Folks must not say that the good things and the miracles that come from Christ and the Father thru the Holy Spirit are the products of Satan. When they do so, they blaspheme the Holy Spirit. That is my take on the context on the subject as spoken by Christ on Matthew 12:22-37 and Mark 3.

It can be a source of division and false guilt if the subject isn’t handled carefully for new tender hearted believers. It has often been brought out too frequently as a “big Gun” which can leave folks frightened and needlessly gutted and seriously thinking they have no real chance to know and serve God. That said, it is a subject that needs to be discussed soberly with opportunity to reassure those that need it. Some will need to hear that they have probably not blasphemed the holy Spirit for some naughty thought that flitted thru their head, or the white lie they told to get their mom off their back(in the case of teens especially).

There are other verses that describe what happens to those who stray from the faith or think they are saved but they are not because they continue in sin without repenting from it.

There are several possible ends that are listed. They do repent or are brought back into fellowship with the knowledge imparted to them as to what it means to live in Christ. Or, they stray so far that they cannot be renewed to repentance as it would be the crucifying of Christ all over again, and their wild “olive branch” is removed from the Olive tree that is the church. Or...if marginally Christian but just stubborn, Christ may release them to Satan for the destruction of their bodies(unless they repent and even then the physical damage may be permanent) so that their Spirits are saved in the day of resurrection.

That is my last statement on the subject. You can have the last word.

There won’t be a place for them to go save to go to civil war to prevent the government from sending them. Well that would be one way to keep the USA out of Ukraine...by keeping the government occupied with domestic troubles here!

I think this judge is smart and toying with Smith causing him to kick and scream and even threaten the judge as she forces him to reveal that his carefully staged trial premises are full of lies, deceit and out right fraudulent distortion of federal law and practice.

He needs to drop the charges in this case and save his own skin...then fly back to Europe and conduct his flufferpoofer International Court trials there. Smith is being forced into an untenable corner in this case. The judge has his legal testicles in a vise and he knows it. I’m ashamed to admit I’m enjoying watching it. He also figures that he’ll lose the DC cases as the Supremes will shut him down.

I’m not reading into it so much as I think you’ve read too much into it.

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is a serious topic but it’s not as common a malady as many seem to push. A lot of newer Christians for example as they start to find out who they are in Christ are pummeled by Satan with that fear that they’ve take some thought or made some mistake and all of a sudden they’ve committed the unpardonable sin and their salvation will now be taken from them.

Many well meaning teachers harp on the subject while ignoring other passages in Scripture that describe how to bring back erring Christians from their backslidden ways. In short only time and the fruits of repentance can only show us who have made the ultimate screw up in their walk with God.

Paul spoke of releasing sinning Christians to Satan for destruction of their flesh so that their spirits might be saved. That very well may the last ditch effort that Christ and the Spirit can make for some errant folks, short of sadly having to remove their branch from Christ’s olive tree.

It’s not as easy to walk away from Christ when the Father has put you into his hands. Sadly it does happen, the bible says so. Yet I suspect Christ makes it difficult and he can exercise his option to let a person enter into Satanic destruction and even death to save that person’s spirit, rather than lose them forever.

I don’t know that it is just Gay people that do the thing you are suggesting has been my point!

There are many people that justify the sins they do that aren’t homosexual in nature that still profess to be Christian. Some may have not have been given the knowledge or have realized that they are doing things that are wrong that as Christians they will need to repent and stop doing. Some may have success one week and failed the next. I don’t think there is a huge amount of Homosexuals, liars, drunkards ect that will openly advocate that one can just sin and that’s okay cause Jesus blood covers all. There are some that teach that sort of thing and theirs will a horrible judgment laid upon them.

Christ said you could blaspheme him and be forgiven but you can’t blaspheme against the holy Spirit and be forgiven. So I’m not sure in the case of the Errant Homosexuals you mention whether their error necessarily rises to the offense against the Holy Spirit or just against the person of Christ, especially since they were probably never saved to begin with. It would depend on how they responded when confronted with their behavior. If some had a tenderness towards God and said ..”Oh I never realized I was sinning like that, I will ask God for forgiveness and ask for power so that I might repent and be changed..” then obviously there was no attempt to blaspheme!” They just simply hadn’t been taught and corrected. The ones that persist and insist, well that is another issue. They either have fallen away, probably never having been in the body in the first place, or Christ will give them to Satan for the destruction of their bodies so that their spirits might be saved in the day of resurrection.

Really the only thing I disagree with you about your application of Matthew 12:22-37 on the condition of the souls that you have talked about. Other scriptures you mention describe their situation in better detail and context.

People who say they are believers but are habitual drunkards may be in the same boat as the homosexuals you describe...or who beat their wives but say they are Christians and still go to church on Sundays. Your particular application is on Homosexuals, which appears to be a singular application of matthew 12 to a singled out group, that you appear unwilling to apply to the other types of habitual sins Christians fall prey to.( who also make the error of justifying their sin thru the blood of Christ while not repenting.)

Look at Mark 3:20-30...Note verse 30.
20 Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21 When his family[b] heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”

22 And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.”

23 So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26 And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27 In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house without first tying him up. Then he can plunder the strong man’s house. 28 Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”

30 He said this because they were saying, “He has an impure spirit.”

Note an interesting corollary in John 10:31-39.
John 10:31At this, the Jews again picked up stones to stone Him. 32But Jesus responded, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone Me?”

33“We are not stoning You for any good work,” said the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because You, who are a man, declare Yourself to be God.”

34Jesus replied, “Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’d? 35If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36then what about the One whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world? How then can you accuse Me of blasphemy for stating that I am the Son of God?

37If I am not doing the works of My Father, then do not believe Me. 38But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the works themselves, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I am in the Father.”

39At this, they tried again to seize Him, but He escaped their grasp.

I agree Homosexual is listed as a specific sin in the Bible as well as others...

1 Cor 6:9, 10

the sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to or perform homosexual acts, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, verbal abusers, swindlers

The Bible lists other sins such as teachers of heresies and those who deny Jesus as Christ (God) as having come in the flesh.

Christ spoke of those who sin who simply lust in their hearts or hold undue anger against a brother(being akin to murder).

All these others would fit under your definitions as those who commit blasphemy against the holy Spirit should they continue to do these things while saying they are saved? Right? Even if they know it is wrong and they repent and ask God for help and yet they slip up again?

You’ve cited these other verses as proofs as to what you were claiming. These may certainly be the case for some sinners that meet the profiles you have described. I am only claiming that you can’t use Matthew 12: 22-37 in that manner. The situation and the context won’t let you expand your conclusions on sinners who repeatedly sin while calling themselves Christian based on that passage.

And you won’t even touch on the subject of Christians who may have sinned in multiple “small” ways but have asked forgiveness off and on as they walk with God . At what point have they not “blasphemed” by calling themselves Christians since no one goes thru a Christian walk without stumbling, even if it means “just” a snarky comment made towards another in a fit of wounded pride?

Christ said we must forgive 77 x’s 7 and if our brother comes to us again with repentance asking for forgiveness, we must forgive him again. Don’t you think that’s what Christ also does for us even as Christians? I do believe however that at some point something will give in such believers. They will embrace the light and stay in that light and allow themselves to have their sins reproved and cleansed in a constant communing fashion...think of it like “continuous quality improvement”.
They either will buckle down in the spirit of grace and truth and power and dominion will be brought to bear over those weak areas in life, or the person will become hardened and frustrated and will fall away and /or as one apostle says...”they were never one of us to begin with.”

A Homosexual who has no consciousness that his actions are sinful who nevertheless thinks he is saved is not committing a blasphemy per se though he has deceived himself; unless of course he starts to openly preach such a heretical blasphemy that there is no sin in Homosexuality. And you and I both have seen and read of such horrible teachers who do preach t those things. Only Christ can determine what sort of path these folks will fall into. He could release such folks to the destruction of their bodies by Satan, save they repent, so that at least their spirits are saved in the day of resurrection. Such folks may have most of their works burned up at the Judgment seat of Christ but they still with have that foundation that is Jesus!

Why is the “same” sin in repetitious fashion the determinant in "blasphemy" in claiming to be saved and not a multiplicity of differing sins that all Christians contend against and occaisionally fail at, such as the occaisional angry feelings against a brother that Christ himself likened to murder in one's heart? Look again at the scripture reference...Christ is speaking of the overt spoken words against the Holy Spirit...in this case, the accusations he faced by the claim that he was driving out Devils with the power of Satan. That was a huge no no. There are other scriptures that cover "willful sin" from which there is no returning. There are other scriptures such a Paul putting a judgment on a fellow Christian, releasing the fellow to Satan for the destruction of the body so that his spirit would be saved in the day of resurrection. So the Bible has different things to say about the failures of Christians from time to time depending on their circumstances. Many Christians will testify of struggling and failing at conquering a sinful weakness multiple times and finally succeeding in full repentance, while all the time still claiming to be a believer. (Many Homosexuals have this issue but some actually are granted the power and they do overcome by the blood of the lamb and by the spirit.) Some Christians have had multiple types of failings but over time grew into stable adults of faith. Did all these folks blaspheme the Holy Spirit by calling themselves believers at the same time?

You cannot use Matthew 12:30 to support your view about repeated Homosexual sin in the way you describe it. The issue of repeated sin while claiming to be saved is a different issue then what Matthew 12:22-37 speaks about. Christ was accused of using the power of Beelzebub instead of the Holy Spirit to drive out a demon. The accusers were warned that to say that miracles that were of God were instead of Satan was blasphemy against the Spirit that would not be forgiven them.

“22 Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. 23 All the people were astonished and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”

24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”

25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

29 “Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.

30 “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. 31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

33 “Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. 35 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36 But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

No doubt there are such people who have deluded themselves into thinking that they are saved despite doing certain sins over and over again without the inward impetus to want to break that cycle of sin. Then again what real Christian has not himself or herself sinned in some ways overtly or inwardly that would be in need of occasional confession to God and repentance.

The very act of needing to “take every thought captive”, to “guard the heart for from it flow the issues of life” involves a tough inner discipline that none of us will fully master until the resurrection. Never mind the repeated sin of a Homosexual who says he is saved, you mean to say that multiple lapses into sins in our own thoughts over a lifetime will also mean that a blasphemy of the Holy Spirit has been occurring when we say we are saved and there-fore we have no salvation? How then can anyone be saved if what you are saying about “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit” is true?

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit means “speaking falseness or evil” and verbally attributing the works of the Holy Spirit as those as being wrought by the Devil was the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit that Jesus warned us about, He gave us the whole context and meaning in Matthew 12:22-37.
It is the spoken word against the Holy Spirit in the earshot of other men that Christ was talking about.

I don’t think your example of repeated sins of Homosexuals while claiming to be saved necessarily rises to that level that Jesus spoke of in matthew 12. You have cited the Homosexual with his or her repeating of such sin while claiming to be saved as a kind of Blasphemy of the Spirit. They may not have been truly saved ever and God has given them over to a reprobate mind. Only God knows. Yet all Christians will sin in a variety of ways thru-out their lives though they will show growth as fewer and fewer such events will occur. Generally, the overt sin stops as the battle moves to the state of mind, spirit, heart, body and soul.

Still we shall all stumble in our races from time to time. Your expanded definition of what you think constitutes the “Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit”, were it true, condemns all Christians after about the 2nd sin we’ve made and confessed to after our conversions.

You’ve taken Matthew 12:30 way out of context.

The security agencies must have certainly gotten wise to O’Keefes’ methods by now and would certainly be able to put out fake actors to muddle the waters for O’keefe’s’ cameras and investigators.

That said, inflated ego fueled braggadocio is a common failing for DC bureaucrats! Show a pretty face and ask some flattery laced leading questions and these guys pour out their vanity for all to see!

It will be an ICC case before the courts in the end. California’s action would affect the rest of the States’ commerce.

LOL! Have a good day!

I was sort of Joking...

Of late when I see Prots and Cath’s “discussing”...I see the Orthodox like the introvert shy girl in the corner hoping that someone will ask to dance with her...

Given that both you and A more perfect were taken aback...I see I was over the target.

I was sort of Joking...

Of late when I see Prots and Cath’s “discussing”...I see the Orthodox like the introvert shy girl in the corner hoping that someone will ask to dance with her...