Posted on 03/15/2002 6:54:33 AM PST by HairOfTheDog
Repost – Highlights from chapters 1-5 copied from the original forum to the new one. To reference the full version, click here: Original Green Dragon Inn Within the first five chapters... disregard the reply numbers... they wont work.
Thank you ecurbh, for copying and editing our old thread so that the highlights could be moved here! Highlights of the first five chapters from the old thread are pasted into the first 5 replies here. For those of you who are just joining you… as of this post we are beginning Chapter 6.
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Welcome to The Green Dragon Inn
Approaching The Green Dragon Inn
Hobbiton, in The Shire
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And wither then? I cannot say.
- JRR Tolkien
Politics also goes ever on and on.
This is a place for FReeper Tolkien fans to come and take a break from the impure reality of conservative activism and relax a little with a great story. We (the other co-conspirators and I) would like to study together the writings of Tolkien, beginning together, and discussing as we go through The Lord of the Rings together.
This is a chapter discussion, roughly one chapter per week, with the discussion mostly centered on the books, though of course the movie will be contrasted and compared, and perhaps used to illustrate another interpretation of the story.
Every week, someone from the group (maybe me) will ping The Green Dragon List to the new Chapter, but we will continue this one thread until it becomes too cumbersome…. Let me know if you would like to be on - or off - this list. I will for now serve as the Thain of the list.
If you are joining late, jump right in, but please stick to the chapter currently being discussed.
Some have loved this story a long time, and some are newly discovering it. If you fit either category, we invite you to join in, but we would like this thread to stay mostly focused on the chapter at hand and keep moving, but at a pace everyone can keep up with… No jumping ahead, and no lagging behind! If you have other news to report or wish to discuss something Tolkien in more general terms… May we recommend the equally homey Hobbit Hole where my co-conspirators and I frequently have plenty of good talk.
One other request…. This thread will get long. In recognition that images slow down the thread for many, let’s keep the posting of images to a minimum on this thread. If there is a great illustration you wish to share, let’s try to use links instead of images wherever possible.
So lets read, listen and become inspired by the many aspects of The Lord of the Rings that touch us deeply and reconnect us to the values we aspire to. Many great discussions have already been had, and I hope that this thread will produce even more. Many FReepers have wonderful things to say about LoTR, whether the fantasy reconnects them with their faith, with their relationships with friends and family, or simply illustrates the splendor of great acts of heroism and sacrifice in the constant battle of virtue versus corruption.
Though it is a work of fiction, we believe the inspiration to be gained can only help us in our larger political goals: to appreciate and defend our freedom, our culture and our political ideals. May the fellowship and insight gained from this discussion help us to work through the issues that are the basis for our many shared ideals.
Besides, we Tolkien fans* need something to keep us busy during the next two years of waiting for the next two films. If you do not enjoy this story, then please simply leave us be.
*Also known as Geeky Hobbity Weirdos, obsessive fanatics, you name it, we have heard it and we see these names as compliments. In other words: don’t act like a troll, or we will distract you with our endless babble until the morning sun turns you to stone.
They may be "proto-", but they're a hip "proto-", after all you can't be hip without potatoes.
Are potatoes a recent invention?
-Kevin
I think some of Jackson's dialogue actually plays better than the book. Aragorn's entrance at Bree, for example, is super.
And I also like how Legolas is the one who stands up in defense of Aragorn and goes after Boromir (this role was stolen from Bilbo).
In the book Aragorn is actually a little too forward:
'The words were not the doom of Minas Tirith,' said Aragorn. `But doom and great deeds are indeed at hand. For the Sword that was Broken is the Sword of Elendil that broke beneath him when he fell. It has been treasured by his heirs when all other heirlooms were lost; for it was spoken of old among us that it should be made again when the Ring, Isildur's Bane, was found. Now you have seen the sword that you have sought, what would you ask? Do you wish for the House of Elendil to return to the Land of Gondor?'
Too fast there Strider! - He didn't even know who you were until two minutes ago, and you want to ask if he would give up the throne for you? - Jackson let Aragorn be a little more subtle, and let Legolas handle the elephant in the room that clearly needed to be mentioned. I like how it played.
But no, there were no potatoes, tomatoes, tobacco, or even chocolate around all those years ago, unless the Elves had them and took them back to Valinor with them...
Potatoes are native to the New World...maybe the Elves brought them.
...for it was spoken of old among us that it should be made again when the Ring, Isildur's Bane, was found. Now you have seen the sword that you have sought, what would you ask? Do you wish for the House of Elendil to return to the Land of Gondor?'
This question Aragorn asks makes me think back to the time of Christ. When He first came He offered Himself as King. He too was rejected, as Aragorn was rejected by Boromir at first.
I wonder if that was in the back of Tolkien's mind while he was writing, being a Catholic and all.
-Kevin
OT: "Maybe their rings clashed with their outfits! :)"
Jen: "Or maybe she was just showing it off, the fashion maven!"
I would agree that a ring of magnificence would clash with Gandalf's rough-ragged grey robes. Kindof like wearing pearls with sweatpants (though I can see Ian wearing pearls)
BUT, Elrond's attire would carry a magnificent ring.
Here you two, have some wings... they're good!
What kind of dipping sauce did you bring for the wings?
'At least for a while,' said Elrond. `The road must be trod, but it will be very hard. And neither strength nor wisdom will carry us far upon it. This quest may be attempted by the weak with as much hope as the strong. Yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere.''Very well, very well, Master Elrond!' said Bilbo suddenly. 'Say no more! It is plain enough what you are pointing at. Bilbo the silly hobbit started this affair, and Bilbo had better finish it, or himself. I was very comfortable here, and getting on with my book. If you want to know, I am just writing an ending for it. I had thought of putting: and he lived happily ever afterwards to the end of his days. It is a good ending, and none the worse for having been used before. Now I shall have to alter that: it does not look like coming true; and anyway there will evidently have to be several more chapters, if I live to write them. It is a frightful nuisance. When ought I to start?
' Boromir looked in surprise at Bilbo, but the laughter died on his lips when he saw that all the others regarded the old hobbit with grave respect. Only Glóin smiled, but his smile came from old memories.
`Of course, my dear Bilbo,' said Gandalf. `If you had really started this affair, you might be expected to finish it. But you know well enough now that starting is too great a claim for any, and that only a small part is played in great deeds by any hero. You need not bow! Though the word was meant, and we do not doubt that under jest you are making a valiant offer. But one beyond your strength, Bilbo. You cannot take this thing back. It has passed on. If you need my advice any longer, I should say that your part is ended, unless as a recorder. Finish your book, and leave the ending unaltered! There is still hope for it. But get ready to write a sequel, when they come back.'
Bilbo laughed. `I have never known you give me pleasant advice before.' he said. `As all your unpleasant advice has been good, I wonder if this advice is not bad. Still, I don't suppose I have the strength or luck left to deal with the Ring. It has grown, and I have not. But tell me: what do you mean by they?'
`The messengers who are sent with the Ring.'
`Exactly! And who are they to be? That seems to me what this Council has to decide, and all that it has to decide. Elves may thrive on speech alone, and Dwarves endure great weariness; but I am only an old hobbit, and I miss my meal at noon. Can't you think of some names now? Or put it off till after dinner?'
No one answered. The noon-bell rang. Still no one spoke. Frodo glanced at all the faces, but they were not turned to him. All the Council sat with downcast eyes, as if in deep thought. A great dread fell on him, as if he was awaiting the pronouncement of some doom that he had long foreseen and vainly hoped might after all never be spoken. An overwhelming longing to rest and remain at peace by Bilbo's side in Rivendell filled all his heart. At last with an effort he spoke, and wondered to hear his own words, as if some other will was using his small voice.
`I will take the Ring,' he said, `though I do not know the way.'
I love the whole bit, and it would have been great had Jackson let Bilbo come to the council. I would love to have seen little old Bilbo saying "Very well!.... When ought I start?" in the film the way he does in my mind. hehehe - and social clod Boromir mocking him! Bah! - And Bilbo wanting to at least get it settled so they could have lunch! Love that part!
'There remain two more to be found,' said Elrond. "These I will consider. Of my household I may find some that it seems good to me to send.'`But that will leave no place for us!' cried Pippin in dismay. `We don't want to be left behind. We want to go with Frodo.'
`That is because you do not understand and cannot imagine what lies ahead,' said Elrond.
`Neither does Frodo,' said Gandalf, unexpectedly supporting Pippin. 'Nor do any of us see clearly. It is true that if these hobbits understood the danger, they would not dare to go. But they would still wish to go, or wish that they dared, and be shamed and unhappy. I think, Elrond, that in this matter it would be well to trust rather to their friendship than to great wisdom. Even if you chose for us an elf-lord, such as Glorfindel, he could not storm the Dark Tower, nor open the road to the Fire by the power that is in him.'
`You speak gravely,' said Elrond, `but I am in doubt. The Shire, I forebode, is not free now from peril; and these two I had thought to send back there as messengers, to do what they could, according to the fashion of their country, to warn the people of their danger. In any case, I judge that the younger of these two, Peregrin Took, should remain. My heart is against his going.'
`Then, Master Elrond, you will have to lock me in prison, or send me home tied in a sack,' said Pippin. `For otherwise I shall follow the Company.'
`Let it be so then. You shall go,' said Elrond, and he sighed. 'Now the tale of Nine is filled. In seven days the Company must depart.'
I looked for that quote before when we were discussing the value of friendship and loyalty. And I knew that it was outwardly said somewhere. While the others may feel duty to the mission, Sam Pippin and Merry represent pure devotion to Frodo, more so than the mission.
Strength will get tired, and hope could wane for those who's primary goal is the mission. To carry the mission through, the best hope may be in the loyalty and love of friendship, which may keep you going longer than duty, or strength.
That being said, it is good that they brought some strong guys too.
Oh I don't know...I'd like to have seen Strider try to convince the hobbits to trust him.
Now that I'm at home with more Tolkien stuff (and a pint), I went to Letters to find out what Tolkien had to say about Boromir. What I found in Letter 154:
Some reviewers have called the whole thing smiple-minded just a plain fight between Good and Evil with all the good just good, and the bad just bad. Pardonable, perhaps (though at least Boromir has been overlooked) in people in a hurry, and with only a fragment to read, and, of course, without the earlier written but unpublished Elvish histories. But the Elves are not wholly good or in the right. Not so much because they had flirted with Sauron; as because with or without his assistance they were 'embalmers'. They wanted to have their cake and eat it: to live in the mortal historical Middle-earth because they had become fond of it (and perhaps because they there had the advantages of a superior caste), and so tried to stop its change and history, stop its growth, keep it as a pleasaunce, even largely a desert, where they could be 'artists'-and they were overburdened with sadness and nostalgic regret. In their way the Men Of Gondor were similar: a withering people whose only 'hallows' were their tombs. But in any case this is a tale about a war, and if war is allowed (at least as a topic and a setting) it is not much good complaining that all the people on one side are against those on the other. Not that I have made even this issue quite so simple: there are Saruman, and Denethor, and Boromir; and there are treacheries and strife even among the Orcs.So Boromir, Denethor, and Saruman are each caught in the "gray area" between Good and Evil. Saruman becomes Evil, Denethor...Spoiler (highlight to read)... gives up the battle, and Boromir fights the good fight despite his faults.
I think one of the main reasons PJ kept so much of Boromir's stuff was as OT said to provide the background that non-LOTR readers would need to know, but also to provide background on Boromir's character. Every other character within the Fellowship is around for 2 more movies and will have time to continue their character development, but Boromir has to be handled in this first one. Because he dies so early on in the quest, his character "stuff" can't be conveniently moved around to later movies, so there's not as much time to "explain" him.
I wonder if that was in the back of Tolkien's mind while he was writing, being a Catholic and all.
I would think it was there, either consciously or subconsciously. Aragorn as king acting similar to the way Christ did when he came is pretty striking in ROTK in particular, IMO. For example, when he came to Minas Tirith the first time, he didn't want his identity revealed yet.
I think Tolkien mentions in his letters or somewhere that LOTR was at its heart a "catholic" work, at first unconsciously and later on consciously (I have mangled that terribly, my memory just isn't what it used to be). So I think it's fair to see some of these parallels. They are wonderfully subtle, which I think was important to Tolkien--he didn't want anyone to have the parallels forced on them as allegory does.
I can't help thinking that one of the things that accomplishes is to drive home the point that any one of us could be that deluded, hopeless Denethor, or poor blind Boromir, or even power-mad Saruman or Sauron. With Boromir and Denethor in particular, a simple rejection of Gandalf's wisdom early on set the stage for their later failures.
Overtaxed wrote: Probably because Bilbo's only purpose at the Council was to tell his part of the "Ring" story and in the movie, that was told in the prologue.
I also think it was logistics. Ian Holm was available for 2 short weeks for filming (if I'm remembering that right), so they probably had to be pretty selective about what scenes to have Bilbo in. Have you noticed that all of his scenes in Rivendell are with only Frodo? It's entirely possible that they couldn't coordinate everyone else's schedule at that point. For one thing, Viggo was a late addition to the cast, for another, Ian McKellan was having to work around his X-Men schedule, and those are just the scheduling logistics that I've heard about.
Also, if they'd had Bilbo seated at the Council, they would have had to give him some lines, and then they'd be trying to squeeze even more into what is essentially a very "static" scene, for a movie of this type. I think ultimately the reason for no Bilbo at the Council was because of all of those factors.
All that being said, I wish he could have been there, but I can see why he wasn't included.
I FINALLY have a few minutes to post, and everyone else has suddenly decided to get a life....
Don't mind me, I'll just go pout in Took's Corner, which is suddenly terribly lonely....
;)
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