Green Dragon PING
Fellowship of the Ring
CHAPTER IV
A Shortcut to Mushrooms
Hullo all! With it being Friday and all, it is time for our new chapter! I hope you are all caught up on your reading!
In this chapter Frodo, Sam and Pippin wake up to find that the elves have gone. After some breakfast and some thinking, they set out from the woods above Woodhall and decide to take a short cut across country to attempt to elude the black riders.
“…Short cuts make for long delays..” said Pippin. “…I had counted on passing the Golden Perch at Stock before sundown. The best beer in the East farthing, or used to be…”
But Frodo insists “That settles it!… Short cuts make delays, but inns make longer ones. At all costs we must keep you away from Golden Perch. We want to get to Bucklebury before dark.”
And here is ecurbh’s Timeline if you would like to keep track of what day it is as we go!
So off we go! – Here is a Map of the Shire so we don’t get lost….
559 posted on 3/1/02 8:05 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
Excellent! I like seeing Frodo afraid of Farmer Maggot. Perhaps it's irony, but it's amusing to me because I know what he'll be facing in the months ahead. To be frightened of a friendly Hobbit farmer!
In the movie, is the frightened Hobbit who gives the Riders directions to Hobbiton Farmer Maggot? I think maybe it's supposed to be - with the dog right there, and it fits in.
No brilliant insights about this chapter. We do learn that Hobbits love mushrooms, but that's about it. Oh, and of course there's more of the gradual unveiling of the Black Riders. I would not want to meet one of those guys.
562 posted on 3/1/02 8:16 AM Pacific by JenB
I think it is interesting that the things the hobbits fear most before their quest are big folk, Farmer Maggot, boats, (minor spoiler coming) and the old forest. Interesting that Tolkien foreshadowed a lot of things to be scary, when they turn out not to be (some of our best friends turn out to be big folk). And the big trouble comes from unexpected places sometimes.
The hobbit in the film with the dog could be farmer Maggot... although he is a skinny guy and quite afraid. Farmer Maggot stands up to them pretty well in the story, and that would have been out of place in the film... I think our friend in the film is a generic hobbit...
This is one part that is tough to fit with the film... Even the Quintessential site pics are out of place for this chapter.
I liked how the title of this chapter was given a part in the film... A little chuckle from Mr. Jackson.
564 posted on 3/1/02 8:26 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
ITA--it's hilarious to think of 50 year old Frodo being afraid of a farmer that punished him as a child.
I do think Farmer Maggot is supposed to be the guy in the movie that the black rider asks about "Baggins."
Some of the things that struck me about this chapter--we get more of an idea of the relationships. We see Frodo wishing he could have Pippin along, but knows he doesn't want to lead him into danger. We have Sam insisting that he go with Frodo--interesting that the elves told Sam not to leave him. Also, I'm always impressed that at this point, Sam sees himself as having an important role to fill as well, even though he has no idea what that might be. It's a big change for him, even Frodo notices that he is different.
The black riders are incredibly creepy, even this early on...they are always lurking, even when they're not seen or heard. Yikes!
I kinda liked the nod to the "shortcut" that they included in the movie. I know they couldn't include all of this journeying with the hobbits, so it was nice to hear about the "shortcut."
566 posted on 3/1/02 8:28 AM Pacific by Penny1
This is the chapter where the character of Pippen becomes a force. He was mentioned in the earlier chapters... but as part of the background. He was linked with Merry.
There is much to learn about Pippen from this chapter. If Frodo is the everyman of Tolkien's story, and Sam the faithful companion... Pippen represents the Hobbits in the joie de vivre.
It is through Pippen that Tolkien's humor first begins to emerge. His humor ran rampant in The Hobbit, but for the most part he has been subdued so far in The Lord of the Rings...
Catch the familiarity between the characters as they set off. You can see it in the way they speak to each other. Pippen asking Frodo if he brought them water. "I can't carry water in my pockets" is Frodo's reply. There is an ease in their relationship.
When Frodo wants to think about what to do, Pippen is very shocked that he wants to do it before breakfast.
Sam's character is not yet defined. He is Frodo's gardner, his servant... though his loyalty is beginning to come through as well as his pure devotion to Frodo. He carried more in his pack than Frodo. He brings things he thinks Frodo will need further down the road, and he isn't afraid to carry more.
Frodo is the leader. The others defer to him. Not because he has the ring, but because Frodo is a natural leader. He is Bilbo's heir and the affection they had for Bilbo remains with Frodo elevating him in stature.
The Black Riders are seen but the meaning of their appearance are not understood to the hobbits. They are afraid of them because they are scarey. When you read The Unfinished Tales... you can see the impact the Black Riders have on Gandalf, Boromir, and Faramir. Their "evil" seeps out.
If you met these three hobbits on the road, I think you would have a tendency to gravitate more toward Pippen. He is as transparent as glass, his mind is on "simple" things... good ale, "the sniffing of the Black Riders", etc.
It is good that Tolkien let us see Pippen in this state. Nothing bad or evil has affected him. He is young, his maturity and his emotional maturity are still young. Nothing has pressed in and shaped him. Nothing has caused him to grow up yet. Life is easy. I believe for Pippin, it has always been easy. He seems to be the favorite cousin... and he responds to Frodo in that manner. That is a pertness and an impertinance about him. It is wonderful to watch him mature.
Of course, after seeing Billy Boyd's portrayal of Pippen, Pippen now comes complete with a Scottish Accent which suits him.
568 posted on 3/1/02 8:33 AM Pacific by carton253
Sam's ... loyalty is beginning to come through as well as his pure devotion to Frodo.
I love this exchange bewteen Frodo and Sam:
"It is going to be very dangerous, Sam. It is already dangerous. Most likely neither of us will come back.""If you don’t come back, sir, then I shan’t, that’s certain," said Sam. 'Don’t you leave him!' they said to me. Leave him! I said. I never mean to. I am going with him, if he climbs to the Moon, and if any of those Black Rulers try to stop him, they’ll have Sam Gamgee to reckon with, I said.
You can't get much more loyal than that.
569 posted on 3/1/02 8:43 AM Pacific by ecurbh
I thought it was significant in this chapter that Frodo realizes the danger and knows he has to get away from the others. He actually even says to himself while watching Pippin cavorting on the grass:
"No, I could not!" he said to himself. "It is one thing to take my young friends walking over the Shire with me, until we are hungry and weary, and food and bed are sweet. To take them into exile, where hunger and weariness may have no cure, is quite another--even if they are willing to come. The inheritance is mine alone. I don't think I ought to even take Sam." He looked at Sam Gamgee, and discovered that Sam was watching him.
[Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring Book 1 Chap 4]
Sam knows just what Frodo is thinking.
Lord, I love this book.
573 posted on 3/1/02 9:03 AM Pacific by 2Jedismom
The other thing I've been wondering is if Elrond blamed himself for not making Isildur throw the ring into the fire--from the scene they showed, Isildur wasn't even wearing it. If Elrond had recognized the danger of the ring himself, he should have found a way to take the ring from Isildur, no matter the consequences to the guy.
Taking the ring by force in the one thing that opens you up to being controlled by the one ring. Bilbo and Frodo are the only ones who come into possession of the ring by means other than force and they are the only ones who have even a smidgen of resistance to it.
576 posted on 3/1/02 9:15 AM Pacific by Valpal1
I think Frodo's definition of danger is defined by Biblo's adventures. He is probably thinking of orcs, and trolls, and Mirkwood, and Smaug... for adventure and danger has been framed by Bilbo and his book. And so it is true for the rest of them. They have heard Bilbo's stories and read his books. Their is probably a romantic aspect to adventures.
He has no idea what is waiting for him. I don't think Mordor can even be fathomed. The Black Riders are overpowering in their "evil". That evil is so palpable that when they are unrobed and invisible, they are still felt.
I don't have the book in front of me, but doesn't Frodo only expect to be alone up until the Prancing Pony. He expects Gandalf to take over. So, that lessens the evil reference even more.
Sam says "I'll go to the moon with you..." No matter how well intentioned that is, it is still hyperbole. It's only an expression of Sam's loyalty. His words make his loyalty great. But his loyalty is still untried, still untested. He has stout words, but does he have a stout heart? We don't know. They are still in the Shire tramping across lands that have never caused them hurt, never brought them danger, never brought them anything but love and security. They can only imagine what waits for them outside the Shire... they can't know for sure. This chapter shows these three hobbits (and Merry waiting for them at Crickhollow with Fatty Bolger) as untested. They've ducked from the riders, but they haven't been put into mortal danger. So, without that testing, there is nothing to measure what strength is on the inside.
The same is true with who I think these Hobbits represent - the English farmer, schoolboy, factory worker sitting in the trenches of France during WWI. It's easy to talk bravery, loyalty, fierceness, and medals while sailing from England to France. But words mean nothing in the trenches with the bullets flying and your childhood mate blown to pieces next to you. All that changes everything. Then we see the measure of the man.
I see the Hobbits, bravely going forth, but naive about what waits for them. This only strengthens Tokien's story. For the time of testing will come, and then we will see what our hobbits are made of.
577 posted on 3/1/02 9:25 AM Pacific by carton253
Catch the familiarity between the characters as they set off. You can see it in the way they speak to each other. Pippen asking Frodo if he brought them water. "I can't carry water in my pockets" is Frodo's reply. There is an ease in their relationship. When Frodo wants to think about what to do, Pippen is very shocked that he wants to do it before breakfast. Sam's character is not yet defined. He is Frodo's gardner, his servant... though his loyalty is beginning to come through as well as his pure devotion to Frodo. He carried more in his pack than Frodo. He brings things he thinks Frodo will need further down the road, and he isn't afraid to carry more.
Pippin sees himself as Frodo's peer, or he wouldn't have expected him to have brought water back. He's coming along to share in the adventure. Sam, on the other hand, consistently demonstrates humble servanthood. He is assisting his master in a dangerous undertaking. Perhaps, because he was listening under the window to Gandalf and Frodo, he better understands the magnitude of the task (which at this point, they think is getting the ring to Rivendell for safety). None of them really know what they are about to sign up for.
578 posted on 3/1/02 9:30 AM Pacific by Valpal1
I think you are right. Pippen does think Frodo is his peer. They are cousins. Pippen is younger, perhaps slightly spoiled, secure in the love that is demonstrated to him. I see Pippen as immature and sheltered. Not because I know it, but because of his attitude and the things he says. He rebukes Frodo, he isn't afraid of Gandalf, he insists on doing, going, being, etc. Frodo speaks to him as easily as Pippen speaks back. These two are family and friends.
579 posted on 3/1/02 9:38 AM Pacific by carton253
I see the Hobbits, bravely going forth, but naive about what waits for them.
I see the two younger hobbits being naive...sure, just like you said, another adventure much like Bilbos, is what they expect. But I think Frodo has a better idea of what awaits. I get the feeling from previous chapters that Gandalf has pretty well clued him in. The Shadow of the Past chapter does it. Frodo says
"I feel that as long as the Shire lies behind, safe and comfortable, I shall find wandering more bearable: I shall know that somewhere there is firm foothold, even if my feet cannot stand there again.."
Then he goes on to say that he always thought of going away, like Bilbo, but he realizes that this is not the same sort of adventure. Not a "there and back again" deal.
All this just breaks my heart. Such self-sacrifice.
Sam, on the other hand, I think has looked forward to the "adventure" but after seeing the Black Riders and talking with the elves, has begun to see just how bad a situation his master is in. And knowing Frodo the way he does...he knows Frodo won't want to bring anyone else into what he has inherited.
582 posted on 3/1/02 10:01 AM Pacific by 2Jedismom
I guess I don't feel that way because there is no way you can know...
You find that out in life. You think you know what storms you can weather. You think you know how brave or how scared you will be... You think you know, but until you are in the storm, until you are faced with either being brave or scared... you don't know.
He doesn't think he will see home again... that is his sentiment. He can believe it... but until it becomes his reality, it is just an abstract idea.
By saying that I don't take anything away from Frodo. But, he hasn't endured anything. Only in the fire is faith/loyalty/courage tested. Frodo doesn't know the fire. He only thinks he knows what the fire will be like.
584 posted on 3/1/02 10:32 AM Pacific by carton253
I agree with 2Jedismom on this one....I think Frodo is much more aware of what's in store, though he does not know the extent nor the specifics of it. There is a certain pall of doom that hangs over him--I think he senses that his fate is likely to be a tragic one, but of course he doesn't know what that will "feel" like.
The Shadow of the Past probably clued him in on it, at least to an extent.
A couple of things that shed some light on his state of mind--first, that he dragged his feet about leaving, and second, when Gandalf said he wasn't ready yet to take the ring all the way to Mt. Doom--and Frodo whole-heartedly agreed with him. Yet Frodo knows already that that may very well be his fate, because Gandalf said that it might. Frodo is well-versed in lore, moreso than most hobbits, he hangs out with elves and is a friend of Gandalf's. He knows who Sauron is, what Mordor is, and what kind of dangerous journey travelling to Mt. Doom would be.
The one thing that I think he doesn't understand, and in fact I don't think anyone does at this point, even Gandalf, is just how much damage the ring will do to him personally as he carries it with him closer and closer to the source of its evil and its power.
594 posted on 3/1/02 12:17 PM Pacific by Penny1
that he doesn't know what he's getting into when he agrees to come with Frodo
I don't think any of the Hobbits know what they are in for...
In one of the previous posts it has Frodo talking about starving... Frodo's never "starved" a day in his life. He eats six meals a day. His definition of starving is being hungry. But, it's just a matter of getting the food... (waiting for it to cook, or for Rosie to serve it) That's a vast difference than having nothing to eat with no hope of getting any.
In Chapter 4... they can only think in the abstract. Yes, it's dangerous. Yes, it could be fatal. Yes, they will brave those ideas. But, there comes a moment when the rubber meets the road (as we say in these parts) where the mettle is tested and these Hobbits aren't there yet.
So, it isn't just the young Hobbits who are naive, Frodo and Sam are just as naive.
In the movie, Strider tells Frodo "I know what hunts you." Strider's knowing of the Black Riders and what Frodo knows of them are poles apart.
595 posted on 3/1/02 12:19 PM Pacific by carton253
It really strikes me in these early chapters, and in the movie, just how much everyone loves Frodo. They go on together, just because they want to go with him. There is something very sweet and simple in their devotion and loyalty. And it's something that only increases and seems to spread to everyone they meet along the way. Except for the bad guys, of course.
596 posted on 3/1/02 12:21 PM Pacific by Penny1
I still think the main difference in Frodo's understanding of the danger is that he doesn't "get" the spiritual danger he is in. He's frightened of the black riders, and in the movie it's obvious that his level of fear matches the level of threat they pose to him physically. What Strider is speaking of, however, is a spiritual danger--the ultimate danger is that Frodo could become one of them. That's something that Frodo only begins to understand when he "sees" them and when he has to fight that danger within his own soul.
597 posted on 3/1/02 12:25 PM Pacific by Penny1
I wonder, too, if in some way the response of the elves to their story drove home the reality of the danger. After all, the elves could have just said they'd be okay, that they didn't need to get too worried about those pesky black riders. Instead, elves who would ordinarily have barely given them the time of day decided to hide them in their own little spot. That was a comfort, but it also says pretty clearly that the hobbits are in serious danger.
599 posted on 3/1/02 12:30 PM Pacific by Penny1
I guess if you want to spiritualize it...
But I'm talking about the physical danger.
This is only my opinion of course...
For example (and I think this example applies) In the book Gone With the Wind, the county boys (Scarlett's friends) were all upset because they thought the war was going to happen without them. They couldn't wait to go to war and lick the Yankees... Why, this was going to be the best fun... They had no idea what was waiting for them. Ashley said, he didn't understand what he was in for until he saw one of his childhood friends die beside him. Then he understood war. Until then, it was abstract. Yes, you might die. Yes, people shoot at you. Yes, all that. But still, there is a moment when your death is no longer a concept but a reality, and that moment hasn't happened to these hobbits yet.
Now, I realize that Gandalf tells Frodo all about Mordor but being told about it and actually coming in contact with it are as different than night and day. That moment is coming (skipping ahead on Weathertop -- then they'll know)
Like I said, it is only my opinion.
601 posted on 3/1/02 12:41 PM Pacific by carton253
Hmmm. I never thought Gone with the Wind would have any redeeming value, let alone be used to illustrate a Tolkien point! I think you're right if you're talking about Merry, Pippin, or Sam. Frodo, however, has a very good idea of the evil in the world out there. He knows more than the average Hobbit about Elves and Dark Lords. He expected never to return, from the first. Merry maybe had a little idea - he seems older and wiser than Pippin, and more experienced than Sam - but not like Frodo. Frodo went into this whole quest thing with his eyes wide open.
618 posted on 3/1/02 3:48 PM Pacific by JenB
I think right then and there, Sam figures out that Frodo's going to try to get away from them. He knows he better watch him like a hawk.
Samwise certainly acts that way later on. (No spoiler details coming.) I think Tolkien having the elves speak so directly to Sam not to leave Frodo began to put things into crystal clear perspective for Sam on this point, and being elves, they understood enough of Sam's nature to know that a word to the wise (hehe) would be sufficient.
634 posted on 3/1/02 7:12 PM Pacific by GretchenEE
At this time in his life, Pippen is not Thain material.
Put contemporaneously, at this point in his life, Pippen is George Bush in the National Guard, heir to a family fortune and the honors of first-born son, with a lifetime ahead to measure up to the name and family greatness he's been blessed to inherit, or disregard what has been given to him.
Pippen certainly has the manner of the Thain's son, if not the deeds to prove his budding strength and character.
635 posted on 3/1/02 7:19 PM Pacific by GretchenEE
There are many who recognize Sam's devotion and commit Sam to his master in this story... In the film it was Gandalf first. In the book, it is the elves:
When I go reread this chapter, it struck me how Frodo is slow (slower than Gandalf and the Elves at this point) to recognize Sam's devotion.
Frodo looked at Sam rather startled, half expecting to see some outward sign of the odd change that seemed to have come over him. It did not sound like the voice of the old Sam Gamgee that he thought he knew. But it looked like the old Sam Gamgee sitting there, except that his face was unusually thoughtful.
Also, did anyone else think it was funny how Farmer Maggot talked about the Hobbiton folk the same way Hobbiton folk talk about the Bucklanders? Reminds me of growing up in a small town not too far from two other small towns who's town folk talked about each other in much the same way! :)
657 posted on 3/3/02 8:39 AM Pacific by Overtaxed
I remember the first time I read the books and my first encounter with the black riders. It seemed that they set the atmosphere and tone for the entire story. They are SO ominious, just dripping and oozing with evil. That was portrayed so well in the movie. I really had reservations initially about the movie capturing the essence of the books and maintaing the creative integrity of Tolkien's complex story. I was pleasantly surprised, and when the black riders came on the scene it became evident that great effort was made to be true to the original.
660 posted on 3/3/02 8:49 AM Pacific by sweetliberty
Does Frodo underestimate Sam's depth or devotion in the beginning? hmmm... I am thinking so. Or he feels like the is the only one who understands the full impact, and thinks the others are more unaware than they are. He thinks at this point he has been successful in shielding his friends from the truth. He still thinks it is possible to slip away and leave them safely unaware and unaffected by this thing. He still thinks they are naively following along. He doesn't know yet that they DO understand, and are willing to follow anyway. He underestimates all of them.
We are certainly given more clues as to Frodo's depth of understanding because we get more of his unspoken thoughts...
Random thought I had the other day. Sam is the only one of the hobbits who even has a job. The others in the group do not work, presumably because they have inherited the all the comforts of life... More subtle clues that Sam is working class, the others are not.
661 posted on 3/3/02 8:57 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
I quite agree. I've seen FOTR eleven times, and I remain overall astonished at it. I still get tears running down my cheeks just at how well Jackson brought so many aspects to the screen.
Another example would be Sauron. I've said this elsewhere, but -- when I first heard Sauron would be shown onscreen, I thought, "Big mistake." One of the remarkable aspects of Sauron in the trilogy is that while (A) he is the gigantic, awful, terror-inspiring and looming enemy all through the books, (B) he is never seen! And so I apply Stephen King's Big Bug principle. The monster bug you see is always less scary than the monster bug you don't see -- because your imagination supplies details that make it personally frightening to you, which might be shut out once you actually see something.
And so a Sauron seen would necessarily be less menacing than a Sauron unseen. See? (c8
But at first view, I saw I was dead-wrong, and Jackson had somehow beaten the odds and made a Sauron who somehow was at the same time seen and not-seen. Yes, he is a gigantic, looming figure. But that isn't what you see, when he really strides forth. What you see (and this is brilliant; the Bible does the same thing) is the reaction of others. You see fierce warrior Elrond literally do a slack-jawed double-take, in the middle of a battle-stroke. You see a group of warriors stagger back together before this massive figure. And then the strikes, sending broken bodies flying over the heads of the army....
So it's a Sauron whom you see, yet at the same time you know he's much more than what you see.
Well, don't get me started. I think Jackson is simply a genius. I am in awe of what he's accomplished. I have my quibbles, but compared with Jackson's successes in bringing alive this wonderful story, they're relatively petty.
Dan
667 posted on 3/3/02 12:33 PM Pacific by BibChr
I'm just jumping in new here....and maybe someone else has made mention of this....
...but impressed with your ELEVEN times seeing this movie.....
...one of the scariest scenes I thought was at the beginning when the four hobbits were on the road & Frodo sensed danger.....
..and he alerted them to run into the bushes.....
..and when the evil presence arrived on it's horse, the atmosphere was so charged with the most oppresive, overwhelming horror.....
..and then that spider, then scorpion, then all the ugly worms started crawling out over the boys.
No one in my group interpreted it the way I did.....
...but I saw it as evil personified and so near, that the horrible, ugly creatures that stay hidden were fleeing away from it?
Does that make sense?
Did you know Tolkien & CS Lewis were friends, and taught at the same university?
674 posted on 3/3/02 1:10 PM Pacific by Guenevere
Random thought I had the other day. Sam is the only one of the hobbits who even has a job. The others in the group do not work, presumably because they have inherited the all the comforts of life... More subtle clues that Sam is working class, the others are not.
Entirely correct, although the class divide for the rural hobbits is nowhere near as great as that of Tolkien's England - they have no feudal system and laws are customary, rather than enforced by a lord or a state. In English class terms, Bilbo and Frodo are "lords of the manor"; the hobbits of Bagshot Row are the Baggins' tenants. These hobbits work for a living and pay rent. Bilbo & Frodo are Hamfast & Samwise's employers as well as land lords.
The Bagginses are rich enough to live off of their savings and their rents. The Tooks and Brandybucks are also important families; at the time the story begins, Merry and Pippin are too young to come into any kind of inheritence, but they probably don't have much actual work to do, apart with helping out their families with whatever work is required to manage the family estates. And when they return, they fall right into leadership roles within their family clans and within the regions of the Shire dominated by their families. Sam is unusual in that he moves up, socially, by inheriting Bag End from Frodo.
679 posted on 3/3/02 1:40 PM Pacific by Vast Buffalo Wing Conspiracy
Welcome!
Believe me, if I didn't have SOME LITTLE SHRED of self-restraint, it'd be 12 or 15 or 18 by now!
I've taken in recent viewings to watching the audience during certain parts. I'm sure your scene (which is very creepy) gets them tense. But a little later, at night, in the forest, when the hobbits start moving and the Black Rider bursts out of the trees with a shriek, the whole audience JUMPS! It's a beautiful thing.
Now you raise something I've wanted to ask the group, and I'm glad you did. What about those bugs? When I first saw it, I thought it yucky but gratuitous. I thought the point was, Ooh, this creature's so nasty, it brings its own bugs. It seemed one of the few cliche'd touches in the movie.
But on reflection I started thinking along the lines you suggest. That the point is: this creature is such a monstrosity, even the nasty bugs are terrified and want to get the he@@ away from it. The Dark Rider's so nasty he scares the worms right out of the ground.
Is that how y'all see it?
Dan
684 posted on 3/4/02 6:46 AM Pacific by BibChr
#684....Yes, that's exactly how I see it!---I know there are intense moments throughout the movie, but the presence of so much evil was palpable, and knowing it was hovering where those boys were.............and then all the yukky creepy crawlies we all hate start pouring out......
Another thought from here......Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the 'boys' were told to travel in daylight, and keep low at night,
What struck me as horrifying was the nightmarish black riders were going around in daytime too.......not waiting for night.
They were everywhere....all the time.....day & night!
685 posted on 3/4/02 7:05 AM Pacific by Guenevere
"The evil WE'RE dealing with is so overwhelming ...........
.We find solace in Middle Earth with the young, courageous Frodo .....small in stature but brave of spirit ..... willing.... even determined, in the face of unspeakable evil... to see this to the end and bring about victory!"
I think you make some excellent points. The most successful of stories are rooted in the essence of our being. Those which speak most deeply to our needs and hopes and fears are likely to be those that endure. Many are based in truth, such as the story of the Pied Piper. Most beloved fairy tales have some basis in fact and often deal with issues of death and destruction in the real world and were designed to comfort the children.
An age of evil has dawned upon our once bright nation, and whatever regrets we may have and whatever blame may be placed changes that fact not one bit. But the deepest darkness can be dispelled by the tiniest light and therein lies our hope.
695 posted on 3/4/02 3:02 PM Pacific by sweetliberty
Alas - Tolkien's world never loses its way... It is an untouchable place uncomplicated by all of that. A refuge we can escape to at any time. One reviewer of the film put it really well. It makes you want to be worthy of Middle-Earth.
HOTD said this better than I could. There's something special about Middle-Earth that makes us better citizens of our own world. We're not really trying to escape, we're just taking a vacation so that Monday morning we can face the realities of terrorism and evil here. I think all of us would leap at the chance to go to Middle-Earth, but since we can't, we build our own Hobbit holes and try to learn something from Tolkien.
696 posted on 3/4/02 3:07 PM Pacific by JenB
Wow! No I didn't, but it sure makes sense. Another of my favorites, Chronicles of Narnia, always put me in mind of Lord of the Rings. Lewis and Tolkien always seemed somehow connected. That is interesting to know.
There is another writer that is associated with Tolkien and Lewis (who formed a writer's group themselves called the Inklings) named Dorothy Sayers. She has written some very good stuff, although I have to confess the only thing I have really read of hers is something called 'The Mind of God" which deals with how a writer is an extension of God's creative power. It was very eye opening to me.
699 posted on 3/4/02 3:34 PM Pacific by Alkhin
I love all the comments I have read...especially those of Merry and Pippin. Although, in Pippin's defense, I would like to toss in my thoughts...his is a refreshing personality and is the best example of the nature of hobbit innocense, without any concept of the horrors and outrage that lie beyond the borders of the Shire. I would liken him to my seven year old, who struggles all the time with the event of Sept 11...one she doesn't understand why people keep talking aobut it, and especially doesnt understand why anyone would want to kill people. This is how I see Pippin's view of the world. Were it not for the fact that he is (heretofore unrevealed) part of a conspiracy to watch Frodo, I think his idea of going on a trip with his cousin would be just that (as someone already eloquently explained it!).
And i really like the way someone explained his relationship with Frodo. It is probable that when I first read it, that my impression of their relationship was one of toleration, rather than affection. It always worried me that whoever would play Pippin would turn him into some whining nuisance that people just tolerated. Of course, as an adult and parent now, I can see that this is exactly how kids act ie always hungry, ferociously curious, and contrary (if you tell them not to do it, they do it.) I really appreciate that someone pointed out that Frodo's affection for his cousin was genuine. I hate it when characters like Pippin are patronized. What I like about Tolkien is that he never gets to that point with Pippin.
But I especially like Pippin because 1) he thinks he can do anything...and usually does. 2) he is always ready to go...and I am a lot like that. why sit around TALKING about it...let's roll! 3) I think he is a lot more perceptive than people give him credit for...but THAT comes out more in TTT, and I think that is more of an inward realization for him.
Of course, all of this is just me babbling...
Fellowship of the Ring
CHAPTER V
A Conspiracy Unmasked
Hullo friends! It’s Friday! – Time for our new chapter! I have been waiting for this one!
And thanks to all of you who contributed during the Freepathon this time. A fine thing to see indeed. Free Republic is valuable to all of us.
In this chapter the hobbits arrive at the house at Crickhollow, and Frodo learns that he is not the only one with a secret...
“It’s coming out in a minute,” whispered Pippin to Merry. Merry nodded.
“Well!” said Frodo at last, sitting up and straightening his back, as if he had made a decision. “I can’t keep it dark any longer. I have got something to tell you all. But I don’t know quite how to begin.”
“I think I could help you,” said Merry quietly, “by telling you some of it myself.”
“What do you mean?” said Frodo, looking at him anxiously.
“Just this, my dear old Frodo: you are miserable, because you don’t know how to say good-bye. You meant to leave the Shire, of course. But danger has come on you sooner than you expected, and now you are making up your mind to go at once. And you don’t want to. We are very sorry for you.”
Frodo opened his mouth and shut it again. His look of surprise was so comical that they laughed. “Dear old Frodo!” said Pippin. “Did you really think you had thrown dust in all our eyes? You have not been nearly careful or clever enough for that!…”
And so the conspiracy unfolds….
Movie Pictures-General This chapter happened “off screen” in the movie… so no specific pictures …
And here is ecurbh’s Timeline if you would like to keep track of what day it is as we go!
So off we go! – Here is a Map of the Shire so we don’t get lost….
715 posted on 3/8/02 10:49 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
Let's start off with a poem: Bilbo's Bath Song, as performed by Master Peregrin Took!
Sing Hey! for the bath at the close of day
that washes the weary mud away
A loon is he who will not sing:
O! Water Hot is a noble thing!
O! Sweet is the sound of falling rain,
and the brook that leaps from hill to plain;
but better than rain or rippling streams
is Water Hot that smokes and steams.
O! Water cold we may pour at need
down a thirsty throat and be glad indeed;
but better is Beer, if drink we lack,
and Water Hot poured down the back.
O! Water is fair that leaps on high
in a fountain white beneath the sky;
but never did fountain sound so sweet
as splashing Hot Water with my feet!
"There was a terrific splash and a shout of Whoa! from Frodo. It appeared that a lot of Pippin's bath had imitated a fountain and leaped on high."
716 posted on 3/8/02 10:50 AM Pacific by JenB
"It’s coming out in a minute,” whispered Pippin to Merry. Merry nodded
One of my favorite statements in the whole story. It shows how much they know about Frodo, and how they've been watching him. Love it!
718 posted on 3/8/02 10:54 AM Pacific by 2Jedismom
Yes, this chapter does develope all four Hobbits quite a bit. We see a side of Sam we haven't before - the conspirator! Merry and Pippin get a chance to show their devotion to Frodo, and incidentally prove that they are capable of at least setting off with him. Keeping this sort of conspiracy a secret is quite a task.
Other than that, we learn more about how much Hobbits love mushrooms, we learn that they like baths, and that Bilbo was quite a composer!
719 posted on 3/8/02 10:57 AM Pacific by JenB
I like this part:
"You do not understand!" said Pippin. "You must go - and therefore we must, too. Merry and I are coming with ou. Sam is an excellent fellow, and would jump down a dragon's throat to save you, if he did not trip over his own feet; but you will need more than one companion in your dangerous adventure."
722 posted on 3/8/02 11:00 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
Sam looked at him unhappily. 'It all depends on what you want,' put in Merry. 'You can trust us to stick to you through thick and thin - to the bitter end. And you can trust us to keep any secret of yours - closer than you keep it yourself. But you cannot trust us to let you face trouble alone, and go off without a word. We are your friends, Frodo. Anyway: there it is. We know most of what Gandalf has told you. We know a good deal about the Ring. We are horribly afraid - but we are coming with you; or following you like hounds.'
I thought that this exchange showed how deeply committed our young hobbit friends are to Frodo. Reading this again, with an eye to analyzing it, made me appreciate all the more the sacrifices these hobbits would end up making to see their friend successfully complete his (their?) quest.
-ksen
733 posted on 3/8/02 5:38 PM Pacific by ksen
Yes, this chapter does develope all four Hobbits quite a bit.
I agree. After this chapter the hobbits are no longer just cute, little, slightly humurous beings. You come to realize that they know the depth of the trouble that they are stepping into and they go into it with all the seriousness that they can muster. They may not know the particulars, but I believe they know the gravity and are still willing to give their own lives to see Frodo to the end of his mission.
Reading this chapter makes me feel good that the Ring has been entrusted to such a loyal, good-hearted group.
-ksen
734 posted on 3/8/02 5:45 PM Pacific by ksen
" Innocence, ignorance, courage and curiosity; How much of which do you think motivated Frodo at his point?"
Frodo strikes me as being a rather deep thinker for a hobbit and one who lives every minute of his life with his whole being. He was also a reader, which was fairly uncommon in hobbits which indicates that he had an inquisitive mind. Undoubtedly he had grown up at Bilbo's knee hearing many of the old stories over and over and doubtless was swept away in his young mind to other places full of mystery and danger and delight. While his love for the Shire was great and genuine, I expect he had a sense in his own mind at a very young age that he would have his own adventures, although I'm sure he could not have foreseen the enormous peril he would face.
I don't think ignorance played too much of a part and innocence was necessary for from it seemed to flow the purity of soul that made him so peculiarly well-suited for his mission. While I am sure early on in the planning there was an element of curiosity at play, Frodo knew that powerful and sinister forces were at work and must be weighed very seriously. Curiosity tends to denote foolishness and Frodo was NOT foolish. As far as courage, while it was something not called for often in the simple life of the Shire, it was his great love for that very simplicity that gave him the courage to face whatever was necessary, for to do otherwise would have meant certain destruction of his beloved homeland.
740 posted on 3/8/02 6:12 PM Pacific by sweetliberty
Innocence, ignorance, courage and curiosity; How much of which do you think motivated Frodo at his point?
Most excellent question.
Bilbo's tales stirred his curiosity, which he had whetted somewhat by traveling a bit, meeting some Elves and Dwarves, etc. He certainly was innocent regarding the knowledge of evil that he was to face, so his innocence could have led him to think it couldn't be all that difficult to get to Rivendell, his initial objective. Gandalf's words had to bring him up short, so to speak, delivering him from much of his naivety, but not enough of it, as Strider would later remark. He had a curious mind or he wouldn't have been tempted to go.
Then there is another thing that I think Tolkien wanted us to see in Frodo, and that is, obligation to do one's duty. I think this drove Frodo on when almost nothing else could have.
745 posted on 3/8/02 10:09 PM Pacific by GretchenEE
Somebody had mentioned before that they didn't know if Frodo and friends knew the gravity of the situation that they had found themselves in. I think the following quote should put that to rest:
'My dear and most beloved hobbits!' said Frodo deeply moved. 'But I could not allow it. I decided that long ago, too. You speak of danger, but you do not understand. This is no treasure-hunt, no there-and-back journey. I am flying from deadly peril into deady peril.'
I think this shows that Frodo knew that odds were that he would never return from this adventure. But he went anyway. Good young hobbit.
-ksen
748 posted on 3/9/02 6:14 AM Pacific by ksen
Sam looked at him unhappily. 'It all depends on what you want,' put in Merry. 'You can trust us to stick to you through thick and thin - to the bitter end. And you can trust us to keep any secret of yours - closer than you keep it yourself. But you cannot trust us to let you face trouble alone, and go off without a word. We are your friends, Frodo. Anyway: there it is. We know most of what Gandalf has told you. We know a good deal about the Ring. We are horribly afraid - but we are coming with you; or following you like hounds.'
The film developed Sam's devotion to Frodo, much more than Merry and Pippin. Merry and Pippin are a treasure only those who have read the books can appreciate fully, at least so far. Their participation in the film seems a chance accident, a spur of the moment adventure they just fall into!
Frodo, of course, seeks to protect them by sneaking away, because he loves them. The other three know this of course, and 'betray' him by conspiring to make sure he can't succeed in that. They will go with him. It is a test of friendship most of us will never face. In a move of self-sacrifice, Frodo will still offer them the chance to stay, now knowing that no matter what, they intend to go. They are naive, certainly. But many acts of bravery are naive. Most soldiers going to war are doing so for the first time.
750 posted on 3/9/02 8:42 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
Anyway I've had more time to think about this chapter. I definitely wish that Jackson had included more of Merry and Pippin's scheming and plotting, because as has already been said it seemed a bit hap-hazard how they joined the group. It's clear that they don't really know what they're going to face, in the book, but they do know this is no picnic. You may not be able to chose your relatives, but Frodo sure hit the jackpot with these cousins!
The plot does advance in this chapter, though the journey itself doesn't; Frodo gains companions but they haven't traveled any further. Frodo knows that he has to leave the Shire quickly but prettly clearly he doesn't realize how little time he has to get out. It's simply their good fortune that they didn't decide to wait longer in Buckleberry... but that's next chapter, or more. We get to see more of the Hobbity courage that all us old hands know the little folk possess, but we also see Fatty Bolger, who's hardly fierce. I think Fatty's here to contrast with our adventuresome Hobbitses. Tolkien wants us to realize that our fellows are the exception - but that all Hobbits have a certain kind of courage and plenty of determination. Maybe all Hobbits are fierce as dragons in pinches, but what makes Merry, Pippin, Frodo and Sam special is that they're willing to be put in those pinches, while most Hobbits would try to get out of it. Tookishness? or too much exposure to Bilbo at a young age? Who really knows...
752 posted on 3/9/02 9:23 AM Pacific by JenB
Maybe all Hobbits are fierce as dragons in pinches, but what makes Merry, Pippin, Frodo and Sam special is that they're willing to be put in those pinches, while most Hobbits would try to get out of it.
Clearly we know our hobbits are special. If I have a quarrel with your interpretation, it would be that these hobbits are, rather than extraordinary by nature, are quite ordinary, but for their extraordinary circumstances.
In other words... they are any common man, behaving exactly in the way we hope we all would if faced with a circumstance that threaten us and our loved ones. This situation has hit them where it matters. True, perhaps Fatty is very happy to have a "reason" it is important for someone to stay behind. But for Frodo, it has fallen in his lap. For the others, it has threatened a beloved friend, and that is all they need to know.
Anyhow, that is what I think.
757 posted on 3/9/02 5:32 PM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
Yes, but he very clearly doesn't realize that they are going to show up.
Frodo has a pretty good idea that they'll show up at Crickhollow:
"I fear those Black Riders, and I am sure it is unsafe to stay in one place long, especially in a place to which it is known I was going."And Merry confirms:"How soon could the riders get to Bucklebury?"
"But, of course, Buckland cannot resist a determined attack for long. And it is possible that in the morning even a Black Rider that rode up and asked for Mr. Baggins would be let through. It is pretty generally known that you are coming back to live at Crickhollow