“But a pre-tribulation rapture in no way changes any of that.”
What this changes is our expectations. For the past two thousand years believers have passed into eternity after going through various trials. And none of them had to face the Antichrist or the Great Tribulation. The idea that Christ may come at any moment presently and keep us from facing these things is an entirely different concept from the idea that the arrival of the Great Tribulation tells us Christ’s return has become imminent.
“Christ will still have Tribulation believers who come to Him during that tribulation and somehow survive, and for Him to gather to Himself and fulfill that prophecy, even if the church is removed before the Tribulation begins.”
The pre-trib rapture doctrine hinges on the “restrainer” being the Holy Spirit who is taken out of the world with the church. This is problematic because it is the Holy Spirit who equips the church to do things like evangelism. Paul asked how the unbeliever will hear and believe if there is no preacher. (See Romans 10 and 2 Thes 2.) Tribulation saints would not only have no one to preach the Gospel and no Holy Spirit to bring about the saving work, but they would also have no empowerment to fulfill the Great Commission. (See Matthew 24.)
The idea of a separate group of believers coming to Christ apart from the church is also problematic because it is a time of great deception from Satan and the antichrist and strong delusion sent from God.
“Also, during the Tribulation, the wedding feast of the Lamb is occurring in heaven. Since the church is the body of Christ, she is the Bride, the one whom Christ is marrying. She needs to be there for her own wedding.”
Revelation 19:7 NKJV
Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.
Revelation 21:2 NKJV
Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
The marriage appears to occur AFTER the Great Tribulation.
“Nor are Christians destined for judgment. Christ mentions that several times in the gospels as well.”
Believers are rescued from God’s wrath and from condemnation. The events of Daniel’s 70th week through the Great Tribulation are the same kinds of things that the Church has experienced for millennia. On the other hand, the trumpet and bowl judgments of Revelation contain God’s wrath and are part of the Day of the Lord. But these things come AFTER the Great Tribulation.
“Also, the Tribulation is about God fulfilling His promises to Israel and bring her to the place of accepting Christ as her Messiah.”
It is the purpose of Daniel’s 70th week according to Daniel 9. But WHEN will Israel turn to Christ? Not generally. Specifically. What part of Daniel’s 70th week? What will trigger this repentance?
“God delivers the righteous from judgment, just like Noah from the Flood, Lot from the destruction of the cities of the plain, and Rahab from Jericho.”
The timing of Noah’s flood and the destruction of Sodom are specifically cited by Christ in relation to His return. The flood represents the scope of God’s coming wrath (i.e. global). The destruction of Sodom represents the type of destruction (i.e. fire). These sudden, cataclysmic destructions are NOT similar to the slow unfolding of events of the early part of Daniel’s 70th week or even the Great Tribulation which begins in the middle. See Matthew 24, 1 Thessalonians 5, 2 Thessalonians 1, 2 Peter 3, and Revelation 5-7.
When you read Matthew 24 and the example of Noah as an indicator of the timing of Christ’s return, you will find it is clearly connected to His visible, glorious return AFTER the Great Tribulation. The disciples asked Christ for the signs of His coming. He gave them the signs. Then He specifically spoke of His coming in verse 30 as being AFTER the Tribulation. This subsequent discussion of Noah and the discussion of Sodom elsewhere (Luke 17:32) relate to what comes AFTER Christ’s return. You and other pre-trib advocates are confusing the signs of Christ’s coming (which come before His return) with the fiery judgments that follow.
The signs are the way we watch for Christ’s coming. They are not what we are being delivered from. How do you watch for Christ’s return with no signs? We are watching and waiting. We watch for the signs. We wait patiently through the tribulations. Those who are ready will escape the wrath to come.
The same way He worked in the OT before He indwelt believers as he does the church.
The signs are the way we watch for Christ’s coming. They are not what we are being delivered from. How do you watch for Christ’s return with no signs? We are watching and waiting. We watch for the signs. We wait patiently through the tribulations.
The signs are already happening all around us, the beginning of birth pangs.
Surely you don't expect everything to be just fine until the rapture occurs then everything falls into place instantly.
We're watching the stage being set even now for things like the moral degradation as in the days of Noah, one world religion, one world currency, one world government, the technology that will implement the mark of the beast, the kind of surveillance state that allows for that kind of world wide control, even the conditioning of the minds of unbelievers to get on board with such a scenario, etc.
Surely you can't think all that could happen overnight.
Besides, *tribulations* which we can all expect to have in this life, is not the same thing as the Great Tribulation.
I have yet to meet a rapture denier who does not deliberately conflate the two and use the terms interchangeably.
Those who are ready will escape the wrath to come.
Wait, I thought you didn't think believers were going to do that, that they would have to endure it because there was no rapture.