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OK, I want to get down to brass tacks here and figure out how all this works in real life.

I live in Norwich England. Near where I live (a small village in Cambridgeshire) two weeks ago two 10 year old girls who were best friends went missing. Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman went out for a walk together one evening and never returned. Their dead bodies have just been found in a field this weekend and a couple from the village are being held for the murder of these two schoolgirls.

Questions:

1) Did God foreknow that these two girls would be murdered? Did He know the exact time and place it would happen?

2) Did God foreordain these murders to happen? Did God, in setting up His plan for the world from the beginning of time, engineer the exact situation where the murderer(s) of these two girls and the girls themselves would meet, and from that meeting, did God know the outcome of that meeting that He Himself engineered?

3) Or did God foreknow these girls would be murdered, but somehow did not foreordain them to be murdered? And, if so, please tell me how exactly this might work.

Interesting questions. I will be watching for the answers, and also pray for the families of these girls.

I believe God foreknew these events and the good that comes from them that we are able to know is that these little souls went straight to be with Him, which for believing parents would be a great comfort.

Becky

1) Did God foreknow that these two girls would be murdered? Did He know the exact time and place it would happen?

IMO Yes. God is omniscient. His omniscience is not limited to the preesent. He knows everything that there is to know about the past, the present and the future.

2) Did God foreordain these murders to happen?

IMO yes. Everything that happens is foreordained. If God does not ordain something it does not happen. It is allowed to happen because God has ordained it so.

Did God, in setting up His plan for the world from the beginning of time, engineer the exact situation where the murderer(s) of these two girls and the girls themselves would meet, and from that meeting, did God know the outcome of that meeting that He Himself engineered?

IMO if you think that God "caused" this to happen, then the answer is no. The evil perpetrators caused this to happen. God allowed it to happen because in the end, it will work together for good. We don't know why, we have to trust God on that one.

3) Or did God foreknow these girls would be murdered, but somehow did not foreordain them to be murdered? And, if so, please tell me how exactly this might work.

Foreordination does not mean that God forced the incident to happen. IMO it means that God saw the situation and how the situation would ulitmately work to His Glory and he then foreordained it. Then as a result of God's permissive will, it happened.

God also foreordained that you would ask the question.

I answer from MY understanding . I will let the Pastors give an "offical answer"

1) Did God foreknow that these two girls would be murdered? Did He know the exact time and place it would happen?

Of course God knows all things.. The number of our days are written in His book

2) Did God foreordain these murders to happen? Did God, in setting up His plan for the world from the beginning of time, engineer the exact situation where the murderer(s) of these two girls and the girls themselves would meet, and from that meeting, did God know the outcome of that meeting that He Himself engineered?

In the sense that He CHOOSE not to intervene God predestined it. God foreknew that the man was going to commit that crime. He did not interfer with the free will of that man to do as he willed to do

As Dr Steve posted

Of God’s Eternal Decree I. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:[65] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[66] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[67]

3) Or did God foreknow these girls would be murdered, but somehow did not foreordain them to be murdered? And, if so, please tell me how exactly this might work.

God knows when a bird will fall from the sky..so we can safely assume that He knew that this man would commit this evil deed

God allowed it to occur. He did not interfer with the action of that mans "free will".

The alternative Arminian choice is God foreknew it did not want to be bothered and let the chips fall where they may (real fatalism).

Or open Theology saying that God has no clue what is going to happen here and it is every man for himself..

Ponyexpresso, I think it is more helpful to look at a biblical case (the deaths of Job's ten children Ch. 1 & 2) rather than the case you cite.

I think the same or similar questions arise out of Job's situation, however we have the added advantage of some Divine commentary and revelation not available in the case you cite. I think the insights from Job are applicable.

Some observations:
[1] The death of Job's kids was an evil act of cruelty instigated by Satan using both natural and human agency.

[2] The death of Job's kids at Satan's hands came after Satan asked and received permission from God to harm Job's family and possessions.

[3] Satan acknowledged that God had placed a hedge about Job that protected him.

[4] God granted Satan permission first to harm Job's family and possessions and second his health. God only prevented Satan from killing Job.

[5] On earth Job was given no explanation (or at least no immediate explanation) why these events were happening.

[6] In fact there was a significant heavenly reason for the tests (tests which included the death of his children). Satan had accused God of bribing man to worship him. Satan concluded that if God were to take Job's health and wealth, Job would curse God not worship Him. By the two tests God demonstrated conclusively that it is possible for man to worship God for Who He is and not what he gives. This is a profound theological demonstration.

[7] When God does answer Job at the end of the book, he does not explain why, rather He asks a myriad of questions to focus Job on Who He is.

Dr. Roy Zuck taught the Book of Job to me at Dallas Seminary (incidentally when he taught this his daughter was in a coma following an automobile accident and her prognosis was uncertain). I will never forget his words to us... "If you know Who God is, you do not have to know Why. Nor is God obliged to tell YOU Why. He wants your trust."

I can not answer the Divine motivation in the life and death of these two English girls. Nor can I say why Bruce Morrison, a China misssionary from our church with six kids, was stabbed and killed in a worship service a year ago. I do know his wife Valerie and see her trust and confidence that Bruce's death was no accident and that God has and will be glorified by it.

Ponyexpresso, whatever conclusions you come to regarding the questions you raise, I would you encourage you to filter it through this passage in Job. Note Job's response was worship and trust and in the aftermath of both tests. God himself axcknowledges that Job's response is right on target.

I used to (a long time ago) be your neighbor, living at RAF Sculthorpe.

As to your questions: Did not God ordain their days even before they were born? Does He not already know the date, time, and manner of our deaths? Could He not choose to grant us long life, or that our lives be snatched away at an early age? Is He not in control over His universe?

My only hope is in the fact that He is the Sovereign Lord over His universe, and that His purposes are never frustrated.

1) Did God foreknow that these two girls would be murdered? Did He know the exact time and place it would happen?

First the word foreknow means "to be aware of the factuality of something ahead of time."

Yes, he knew they would be murdered. Yes, he knew the time and place.

2) Did God foreordain these murders to happen? Did God, in setting up His plan for the world from the beginning of time, engineer the exact situation where the murderer(s) of these two girls and the girls themselves would meet, and from that meeting, did God know the outcome of that meeting that He Himself engineered?

Second, foreordain means "to appoint or settle something ahead of time; to predestine."

No, God did not appoint (plan) them to happen. They were, therefore, not part of His plan, nor was the meeting of murderer(s) and girls part of His plan. God DID know the outcome of the meeting, although He did not APPOINT the meeting. (Make it an unavoidable appointment by HIS OWN design.)

3) Or did God foreknow these girls would be murdered, but somehow did not foreordain them to be murdered? And, if so, please tell me how exactly this might work.

Yes, God was aware ahead of time that these girls would be murdered, yet He did not appoint (plan) them to be murdered.

How would this work?

1. First, God gave free choice to the murderer and to the 2 girls. They, being free moral agents, were able to make independent choices for themselves.

2. Second, at the time that God foresaw all of history, he saw this event unfold. Perhaps that would make us want to start over with a different plot happening, but God was committed to giving free choice to his creation. If he didn't give them free choice, they would be robots. But since he wanted real beings capable of real love and real faith, He went ahead and started time. He also saw the great group of those who would turn to him in faith and love; he foreknew them, and decided that they were so precious that they should come into existence.

3. Looking at all the tragedy of all time, God decided that the loving end result of creation was more valuable than the sometimes tragic cost of those who would choose evil.