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1 posted on 02/25/2002 11:01:41 PM PST by fortheDeclaration (aruanan,Xzins, Rnmomof7,the_doc,George W.Bush,Jerry_M,CCWoody,OrthodoxPresbyterian)
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To: *Christian_List

2 posted on 02/25/2002 11:08:04 PM PST by Libertarianize the GOP
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To: fortheDeclaration
Bump for God's love and incredible mercy.
3 posted on 02/25/2002 11:38:39 PM PST by MarMema
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To: fortheDeclaration, ccwoody, jean chauvin, rnmomof7, jerrym
This article is why so many advocates of election detest John Wesley. His point is so well taken. All of his points are so wonderfully made.

27. This is the blasphemy for which (however I love the persons who assert it) I abhor the doctrine of predestination, a doctrine, upon the supposition of which, if one could possibly suppose it for a moment, (call it election, reprobation, or what you please, for all comes to the same thing,) one might say to our adversary, the devil, "Thou fool, why dost thou roar about any longer? Thy lying in wait for souls is as needless and useless as our preaching. Hearest thou not, that God hath taken thy work out of thy hands; and that he doeth it much more effectually? Thou, with all thy principalities and powers, canst only so assault that we may resist thee; but He can irresistibly destroy both body and soul in hell! Thou canst only entice; but his unchangeable decrees, to leave thousands of souls in death, compels them to continue in sin, till they drop into everlasting burnings. Thou temptest; He forceth us to be damned; for we cannot resist his will. Thou fool, why goest thou about any longer, seeking whom thou mayest devour? Hearest thou not that God is the devouring lion, the destroyer of souls, the murderer of men" Moloch caused only children to pass though the fire: and that fire was soon quenched; or, the corruptible body being consumed, its torment was at an end; but God, thou are told, by his eternal decree, fixed before they had done good or evil, causes, not only children of a span long, but the parents also, to pass through the fire of hell, the 'fire which never shall be quenched; and the body which is cast thereinto, being now incorruptible and immortal, will be ever consuming and never consumed, but 'the smoke of their torment,' because it is God's good pleasure, 'ascendeth up for ever and ever.'"

28. O how would the enemy of God and man rejoice to hear these things were so!

Awesome post ftD. Rnmomof7, thank God you are part of the Wesley tradition. Lovingly, we entreat our calvinist brethren to consider the impact of their teachings. But whatever the bible means, as Wesley says, it cannot mean that God created countless billions of souls with the ORIGINAL intention that they have no hope. Whatever the bile might mean, it cannot mean this.

4 posted on 02/26/2002 5:57:51 AM PST by xzins
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To: fortheDeclaration
I believe that if we really do have free-will, it is either the punishment for original sin, or the sin itself.
29 posted on 02/26/2002 8:33:38 AM PST by stuartcr
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To: fortheDeclaration
[I]f a sick man knows that he must unavoidably die, or unavoidably recover, though he knows not which, it is unreasonable for him to take any physic at all. He might justly say, (and so I have heard some speak, both in bodily sickness and in spiritual,) "If I am ordained to life, I shall live; if to death, I shall live; so I need not trouble myself about it.

This is my favorite quotation from Mr. Wesley. It slices right through the rhetorical dodging of the Calvinist construct with unanswerable Truth.

54 posted on 02/26/2002 12:39:34 PM PST by winstonchurchill
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To: fortheDeclaration
I've asked this before on the "Neverending Chronicles" thread, and I'll ask it again: Why is it that we must debate about which "version" of Christianity is right?

Personally, I think that the Devil likes these kinds of debate about nothing.

693 posted on 02/28/2002 5:57:55 PM PST by FourtySeven
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To: fortheDeclaration
This would be a good time to take out our hymn books and sing:

Amazing Grace


1,151 posted on 03/02/2002 7:10:34 PM PST by Consort
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