27. This is the blasphemy for which (however I love the persons who assert it) I abhor the doctrine of predestination, a doctrine, upon the supposition of which, if one could possibly suppose it for a moment, (call it election, reprobation, or what you please, for all comes to the same thing,) one might say to our adversary, the devil, "Thou fool, why dost thou roar about any longer? Thy lying in wait for souls is as needless and useless as our preaching. Hearest thou not, that God hath taken thy work out of thy hands; and that he doeth it much more effectually? Thou, with all thy principalities and powers, canst only so assault that we may resist thee; but He can irresistibly destroy both body and soul in hell! Thou canst only entice; but his unchangeable decrees, to leave thousands of souls in death, compels them to continue in sin, till they drop into everlasting burnings. Thou temptest; He forceth us to be damned; for we cannot resist his will. Thou fool, why goest thou about any longer, seeking whom thou mayest devour? Hearest thou not that God is the devouring lion, the destroyer of souls, the murderer of men" Moloch caused only children to pass though the fire: and that fire was soon quenched; or, the corruptible body being consumed, its torment was at an end; but God, thou are told, by his eternal decree, fixed before they had done good or evil, causes, not only children of a span long, but the parents also, to pass through the fire of hell, the 'fire which never shall be quenched; and the body which is cast thereinto, being now incorruptible and immortal, will be ever consuming and never consumed, but 'the smoke of their torment,' because it is God's good pleasure, 'ascendeth up for ever and ever.'"
28. O how would the enemy of God and man rejoice to hear these things were so!
Awesome post ftD. Rnmomof7, thank God you are part of the Wesley tradition. Lovingly, we entreat our calvinist brethren to consider the impact of their teachings. But whatever the bible means, as Wesley says, it cannot mean that God created countless billions of souls with the ORIGINAL intention that they have no hope. Whatever the bile might mean, it cannot mean this.
BTW, my biggest beef with Wesley was his un-Christian attack upon his friend, George Whitfield. However, I think he has had ample time to realize his error and apologize to his friend by now.
I see that xzins has found Supra-Calvinism. (Did I get the label right?)
Not Calvinism but Hyper-Calvinism!
6. If you believe Pharaoh, or any one man upon earth, was created for this end, -- to be damned, -- you hold all that has been said of predestination.
Not Calvinism but Hyper-Calvinism!
10. But if this be so, then is all preaching vain. It is needless to them that are elected; for they, whether with preaching or without, will infallibly be saved. Therefore, the end of preaching -- to save should -- is void with regard to them; and it is useless to them that are not elected, for they cannot possibly be saved: They, whether with preaching or without, will infallibly be damned. The end of preaching is therefore void with regard to them likewise; so that in either case our preaching is vain, as you hearing is also vain.
So, Wesley really has no clue what Calvinist really believe. He keeps smashing his head against Hyper-Calvinism.
11. This then, is a plain proof that the doctrine of predestination is not a doctrine of God, because it makes void the ordinance of God; and God is not divided against himself.
Wesley really choked pretty hard on all of this.
17. Again: How uncomfortable a thought is this, that thousands and millions of men, without any preceding offense or fault of theirs, were unchangeably doomed to everlasting burnings!
Wesley seems bent on nothing more than tearing down his opponent through misrepresentation. He really seemed blinded by his zeal to tear apart Calvinism that he never realized that he wasn't even arguing against Calvinism. The only thing which doesn't make the above statement Pelagain heresy is the word preceding.
He gave himself a ransom for all;" (1 Tim. 2:6;)
BTW, in his zeal, he never stopped to consider that if this truly is all in this passage that 1 Tim 2 is teaching that we should pray for the very overthrow of THE PROPHECIES OF GOD!
Thou fool, why dost thou roar about any longer? Thy lying in wait for souls is as needless and useless as our preaching. Hearest thou not, that God hath taken thy work out of thy hands; and that he doeth it much more effectually?
Do you suppose that Wesley ever stopped to consider that Satan only has a much power as it pleases God for him to have?