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Stop the universe, it's leaving us behind (faster-than-light expansion)
Sydney Morning Herald ^ | 3/21/02 | Richard Macey

Posted on 03/20/2002 6:47:11 AM PST by dead

Wave goodbye to the universe. The expansion of the universe, which began about 15 billon years ago with the Big Bang, is mysteriously getting faster, Australian and British astronomers say.

However, they admitted yesterday they did not have a clue what "dark energy" was driving the galaxies to defy gravity and fly apart with ever increasing speed.

"We don't understand the physical process," said Matthew Colless, of the Australian National University.

But, "eventually the universe will accelerate so rapidly the more distant galaxies we can see today will move away faster than the speed of light and will disappear over the horizon."

Expansion faster than light is possible because, not only are galaxies flying apart at extraordinary speeds, but space itself is expanding, carrying the galaxies away with it.

Until 1998 astrophysicists were debating whether gravity was slowing the expansion enough to eventually cause the universe to collapse in a Big Crunch.

That year other astronomers, including Brian Schmidt, of the ANU's Mount Stromlo Observatory, near Canberra, produced the first solid evidence that the expansion was accelerating.

Studying exploding stars, they found that the more distant ones were fainter - and thus further - than seemed possible. They concluded an accelerating universe was to blame.

"It was a huge surprise," Dr Schmidt recalled yesterday. "I was rather scared to go out and tell people. I thought they'd laugh me off the planet."

Dr Colless, one of the first he told, was "shaking his head".

The new project, involving the ANU, the University of NSW, the Anglo-Australian Observatory near Coonabarabran, and British scientists, led by Cambridge Professor George Efstathiou, used a different method to reach the same finding.

They spent five years mapping the position and speed of 220,000 galaxies. They then compared the data with microwave radio charts of other scientists to "map" the universe as it was 150,000 years after the Big Bang - before the first galaxies even lit up. They found that only an accelerating universe would have allowed it to grow to today's size.

"Now we have two independent pieces of evidence that both give exactly the same answer," Dr Colless said. "I didn't believe Brian at first ... you have to rearrange the mental furniture."

While most galaxies would vanish from view, the Milky Way, and its nearest neighbours, glued together by gravity, would travel on alone. Dr Schmidt said the confirmation was "great news for me. I can sleep a little better. It's evidence we didn't screw up four years ago."


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To: HeadOn
If light from 10 billion light years away has the added component of this "faster than light expansion", doesn't that skew the age to younger than 10 billion years?

I don't think he said that the universe was expanding faster than light now -- just that it might do so.

But, still -- if the "distance" we observe is determined by an assumption that is not true (i.e. constant speed of light, no expanding universe) ... well, seems to me that any correction one would make on the basis of the new evidence would have the effect of making the universe younger than Sagan's "billions and billions of years."

Now, I wonder if anyone will attempt to determine what the rate of increase in the expansion is? Or, having done that, what the result will be when the age of the universe is reckoned on the basis of this data?

41 posted on 03/20/2002 7:31:23 AM PST by Brandybux
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To: dead
"There will be a new heaven and a new earth."
42 posted on 03/20/2002 7:32:18 AM PST by concerned about politics
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To: dead
I'll believe this when xlinton leaves us faster than the speed of light
43 posted on 03/20/2002 7:34:19 AM PST by InvisibleChurch
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To: dead
"While most galaxies would vanish from view, the Milky Way, and its nearest neighbours, glued together by gravity, would travel on alone."

hmmm the More important question is how does Cow Flatulence fit into this equation? I think the Cow Flatulence Theory on Global Warming is the most exciting scientific discovery since the "Chia Pet"...

44 posted on 03/20/2002 7:35:29 AM PST by Mad Dawgg
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To: Brandybux
Thank you. That's what I was thinking.

Another interesting question: Who says that expansion (or contraction) has not been occurring at differing speeds over the life of the universe? What was the rate a few hundred years ago before we even understood we could measure it? If this is so, then all of Sagan's bets are off.

Really throws a kink in everything, doesn't it?

45 posted on 03/20/2002 7:37:34 AM PST by HeadOn
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To: dead
I hope you all know that the scientists don't know what the heck they're talking about. Their ever changing assumptions about what is happening in a truly enormous universe are based on their base assumptions about what things like shifts in light spectra mean. You will note there is always some mysterious unexplained factor such as "dark energy" or "dark matter" that must exist to explain what they think their observations mean. Did you all know that beta carotene has been shown NOT to fight cancer and is now believed to enhance some cancers? How many years did scientists tell you the opposite?
46 posted on 03/20/2002 7:38:07 AM PST by Williams
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To: RadioAstronomer
Thank you so much for the heads up!!!

IMHO, until we arrive at a better determination of space topology it is too early to attribute the observation to speed faster than light:

A Small Spherical Universe after all?

Cosmic crystallography looks at the 3-dimensional observed distribution of high redshift sources (e.g. galaxy clusters, quasars) in order to discover repeating patterns in their distribution, much like the repeating patterns of atoms observed in crystals. They showed that "pair separation histograms" are in most cases able to detect a multi- connected topology of space, in the form of spikes clearly standing out above the noise distribution as expected in the simply-connected case. The researchers have particularly studied small universe models, which explain the billions of visible galaxies are repeating images of a smaller number of actual galaxies.


47 posted on 03/20/2002 7:40:56 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: VadeRetro
So, if we're going to "boldly go where no man has gone before," we'd better go pretty fast?

Lay off the lesbian jokes, okay?

48 posted on 03/20/2002 7:41:48 AM PST by longshadow
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To: HeadOn
Honest question: How does this relate to the apparent ages of stars, then? If light from 10 billion light years away has the added component of this "faster than light expansion", doesn't that skew the age to younger than 10 billion years?

This is probably a bad explanation but here goes:

Time (due to due to relativistic time dilation) slows down as objects speed up. Thus even though the universe is expanding, light did indeed leave the object in question 10 billion years ago.

49 posted on 03/20/2002 7:41:57 AM PST by RadioAstronomer
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To: HeadOn
"Another interesting question: Who says that expansion (or contraction) has not been occurring at differing speeds over the life of the universe?"

I know that after drinking multiple glasses of "Midwest Screwdrivers" the Universe seems to speed up and then procede to rotate to the right at an ever increasing rate of speed...

Then I wake up the next morning and it seems the Universe is going at a high rate of speed in reverse (which would explain why my eyeballs feel like they are gonna pop out of my head)

50 posted on 03/20/2002 7:43:18 AM PST by Mad Dawgg
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To: dead
It's really gonna suck, billions of years from now, when our descendents look up in the night sky and all the stars have moved away.

All the stars you see in the sky are in our own galaxy. I don't believe there are any naked eye objects outside our galactic cluster.

51 posted on 03/20/2002 7:43:34 AM PST by mlo
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To: Williams
Your point does not escape me, but don't forget it was scientists who put a man on the moon, and scientists who discovered antibiotics, and scientific endeavors which have led to many improvements. There are of course many failures along the way and even some foolishness, nevertheless I'm glad they're out there.
52 posted on 03/20/2002 7:44:18 AM PST by week 71
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To: Lokibob
If you are in a space ship traveling at the speed of light and you turn on the headlights, what happens?

Ask Dr. Science! He knows! He has a master's degree in science!

I've actually seen Dr. Science perform this very experiment on a PBS special about ten years ago. Extremely funny stuff.

53 posted on 03/20/2002 7:44:51 AM PST by Alex Murphy
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To: Williams
While the "final answer" to all scientific inquiry might be nice, the journey towards it is just as interesting and enlightening.
54 posted on 03/20/2002 7:46:51 AM PST by dead
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To: mlo
"I don't believe there are any naked"

I knew this thread would get around to Nudity if I hung around long enough...

BTW is there any prgress on posting the Figure Skating Nipple picture yet?

55 posted on 03/20/2002 7:47:09 AM PST by Mad Dawgg
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To: mlo
I don't believe there are any naked eye objects outside our galactic cluster.

Large and Small Magellanic Clouds, M31 (Andromeda Galaxy), and others are all extra-galactic naked-eye objects.

56 posted on 03/20/2002 7:47:30 AM PST by longshadow
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To: Mad Dawgg
(which would explain why my eyeballs feel like they are gonna pop out of my head)

"Whoever pulls this sword from my head will be proclaimed king!"

57 posted on 03/20/2002 7:50:30 AM PST by concerned about politics
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To: dead
The expansion of the universe, which began about 15 billon years ago with the Big Bang

No it didn't. Sorry.
58 posted on 03/20/2002 7:50:38 AM PST by day10
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To: dead
It's obvious, we need a universe-expansion tax on industrialized countries, whose emissions are contributing to the problem. Also, any new housing development must submit a universe-expansion impact statement prior to zoning approval.
59 posted on 03/20/2002 7:50:58 AM PST by LJLucido
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To: dead
I hope you all know that the scientists don't know what the heck they're talking about. Their ever changing assumptions about what is happening in a truly enormous universe are based on their base assumptions about what things like shifts in light spectra mean. You will note there is always some mysterious unexplained factor such as "dark energy" or "dark matter" that must exist to explain what they think their observations mean. Did you all know that beta carotene has been shown NOT to fight cancer and is now believed to enhance some cancers? How many years did scientists tell you the opposite?
60 posted on 03/20/2002 7:51:29 AM PST by Williams
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