Anti-Catholic 'Experts' Fuel Church's Scandals [new blockbuster "Goodbye! Good Men"]

NewsMax ^ | 4-4-2002 | Phil Brennan

[wideawake]

Talk to Renatus about this. He'll tell you that Joseph Wicker is simply doing the will of God, and we mere Catholics should keep our traps shut and revel in the fruits of Wicker's wisdom.

[SkyPilot]

If the Pope wants to clean up this mess, he will have to issue a proclamation:

"Homosexuality is Sin. The Bible calls it such; and it is not compatible with the priesthood - period. Any member of the priesthood who is Homosexual must resign immediately or face expulsion and excommunication. This includes any Homosexual who is celibate, or not."

[Notwithstanding]

The Catechism issued by this pope (in 1994 I think) clearly states that homosexual sex is "evil".

Wanting to engage in an evil type of sex is like wanting the Lexus or Hummer that pulls up next to us at the stoplight. Both are condemned by the Bible as evil.

Any pastor who ever lusts inside after a buxom woman needs to be excommunicated? Oh please. If that is the standard then no denomination would have any pastors.

[Renatus]

Talk to Renatus about this. He'll tell you that Joseph Wicker is simply doing the will of God, and we mere Catholics should keep our traps shut and revel in the fruits of Wicker's wisdom.

Once again, Wideawake, you try to get me to defend a position I do not hold. I agree that seminaries are in need of reform. They have been in need of reform for thirty years or more. The sooner the better. Many of the problems I have with Sinkspur is that he got infected with the virus that was spreading about the seminaries in his day and he doesn't even know it. Many Freepers have gotten infected too. They seem to think the Church is a democracy. Most of them don't really understand the nature of the Church nor of the priesthood. Lay people have no right to be in our sanctuaries, with the exception of altar boys, nor do they have the right to rule. That comes with priestly consecration.

[wideawake]

All right, that was out of line. I apologize.

The Church is not a democracy - i.e. the faithful don't get to vote on matters of discipline any more than they get a vote on matters of doctrine or morals.

But the faithful do have rights in the Church. Among those rights are access to the Sacraments and the right to be accurately instructed in faith and morals. These simple, basic responsibilities on the part of the clergy: orthodox instruction, Masses said according to the GIRM, etc. have been abandoned by many clerics.

We have a right to appeal over the heads of negligent prelates to Rome for justice. And Rome has a responsibility to listen and take things seriously.

[eastsider]

... Masses said according to the GIRM ...

Pardon my ignorance, but what's the GIRM?

[Renatus]

But the faithful do have rights in the Church. Among those rights are access to the Sacraments and the right to be accurately instructed in faith and morals. These simple, basic responsibilities on the part of the clergy: orthodox instruction, Masses said according to the GIRM, etc. have been abandoned by many clerics.

I could not agree with you more. It's a miracle!

[wideawake]

The General Instruction on the Roman Missal. What we used to call the rubrics. It's printed in the front of every altar missal.

It was revised in 2000 to close the loopholes for some abuses - two years later the National Conference of Catholic Bishops has yet to provide an English translation of the Latin original.

[ecomcon]

The Catholic Church has set up a false division between the leaders and the led. The faithfull are the Church of Christ. The hierarchy and structure are not.

Not to say that there is something necessarily wrong with hierarchy or structure, per se. It seems that the prelates think of themselves as separate from the laity. They are to serve and shepherd. There calling is to humility.

He who would be first, must be last.

[wideawake]

Not exactly. Probably has more to do with your patience with me.

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

Rose has some very good points. A lot of this is true. There is, however, a certain complexity to some of the issues which Catholic priests will have to face in their pastoral stewardship of the Catholic faith in the contemporary postmodern American wasteland. Depending upon how the "conservative" candidates are styling themselves, the way "the faith" is presented requires some subtlety and psychological sophistication in certain situations. It's not always just a mere matter of spouting dogmatic formulas and Latin codewords from papal encyclicals as some fellow orthodox conservative Catholics all too often do. What do you tell a girl who has just had an abortion? What happens when a young homosexual man comes seeking help? How do you convince a man in a confessional to stop cheating on his wife or to seek help for spousal abuse? These kinds of situations do require sensitivity, sophistication, and spiritual perceptiveness which conservative muscle-flexing cannot always deliver. Some orthodox conservatives do make mistakes in the way they approach some Church matters. Anyone thinking about becoming a priest today needs to learn how to deal and talk with strident liberals, homosexuals, and wide variety of odd characters.

[eastsider]

Thanks, and I agree that the lack of translation certainly does seem to be symptomatic of a larger problem.

[Renatus]

It seems that the prelates think of themselves as separate from the laity. They are to serve and shepherd. There calling is to humility.

There is an ESSENTIAL difference between the priesthood of the laity and the ministerial priesthood. Yet we all belong to the one priesthood of Jesus Christ by reason of our baptism. With Holy Orders the priest is configured to Christ as Head and Shepherd and acts "in the person of Christ" in the celebration of the Eucharist. This is so, as you say, that the people can be served and given the saving sacraments of grace. The lay person does not have the configuration to Christ as Head and Shepherd. The priest by reason of his consecration is placed in the forefrent of the Church to lead and rule because he is configured to Christ as Head and Shepherd.-------The priest is called by God to offer sacrifice to God for us and to be our representative before God. He may be sinful, as the Book of Hebrews says, so he is to offer sacrifice to God for his sins as well.---Christ has constructed and given to us a great gift of the Church and the sacred priesthood so that we might live in His life now and for all eternity.

[EdReform]

Bump

[Renatus]

There calling is to humility

I have always been led to believe, snd personally believe, that humility is calling for all of us.

[ecomcon]

Certain specifically Catholic doctrines aside, I agree with your statement. That accurately describes how the hierarchical structure of the ministry of the Catholic Church is intended to work. No argument there.

What I was trying to get at, is simply that the prelates and the laity together, indeed all the fellowship of believers, collectively are the Church of Christ. And that while all Christians are called to humility, positions of leadership require that humility be made manifest.

[iranger]

"Anyone thinking about becoming a priest today needs to learn how to deal and talk with strident liberals, homosexuals, and wide variety of odd characters."

In other words priests need to succumb to the holy grail of political correctness?

[Chemnitz]

This filtering of candidates is a neat tool for all mainline denominations to create a ministerium suited to them. Once accepted, it gives enormous power to anonymous people appointed by functionaries. These consultants may be crazier than bedbugs, but they are "outside experts" and immediately trusted.

The first generation of filters may do a good job in excluding people who should not be ministers. Later, all one has to do is question women's ordination or abortion as birth control and the interviewer's eyes will fill with tears. Goodbye seminary. In addition, similar tools are used to get rid of dissenting conservative seminary students. One scientist argued Creation successfully at a Lutheran seminary. The faculty voted unanimously to get rid of him.

[Notwithstanding]

"In other words priests need to succumb to the holy grail of political correctness?"

No. Rather, pastors need to know how to talk to all sinners in a way that might catch their mind and win it over to repentance and life in Christ. Christ did not walk up to every sinner and condemn them cold. Rather, he befriended them, showed them his compassion and empathy and then leveled with them about the wagesof sin.