ABSOLUTE POWER: What "Pro-Choice" Is Really All About: Answers, Abortion, Fatherhood

4/14/2001 | Sarah E. Hinlicky

[Marine Inspector]

You've obviously never lived in Africa.

After about 2 weeks of agonizing over what to do, they had the doctor do the C-Section. The doctor, in the mean time was consulting with other doctors in neighboring countries on the proper procedures. As it turned out, she did have a few minor complications, but both mother and baby were fine.

Unfortunately, the pro-choice / pro-life issue is not as black and white as some wish to believe.

[syriacus]

both mother and baby were fine.

How wonderful that the doctors persisted and found a solution that saved both the mother and her child!!

[syriacus]

Some women view their child's birth by looking in a mirror, so the woman might be the one to notice the baby looked different than she expected.

I don't have answers to all your other points, but since this is a hypothetical situation I can try to change things a bit to make the example more suitable for this discussion.

For example, let's say the baby's real father's feet have extra digits or some other distinguishing characteristic-- so it is the woman (not the doctor) who realizes who is really the baby's father. If only males can inherit the characteristic, we'll make the baby a male.

[syriacus]

Which brings up an interesting question concerning the Left's rhetoric concerning nature. To them, nature is inherently a good thing, worth preserving, protecting. Science and technology, in this view, are inherently bad in that they make war against nature.

But science and technology aren't evil when they are used to control human biology.

A really good point... Thanks for sharing the insight.

[rdb3]

Thought-provoking article.

I view abortion as an abominable practice and sinful to the fullest extent. But these are not my primary arguments against it. When arguing from this standpoint, it becomes a moral issue and our system of law is not based on the Word of God.

My main, secular argument against abortion is actually a matter of technology. Though I am a man, I find absolutely no justifiable reason for abortion in the year 2002. There hasn't been one in quite a long time. My view is that a woman who gets pregnant today gets pregnant due to one of two circumstances: 1. She is reckless, and/or 2. She views abortion as the ultimate in contraception.

Think about it for a second. With the easily availability of condoms, birth control pills, and an IUD, how on earth is it possible for a woman to get pregnant if she really doesn't want to become pregnant in the first place?

[teeman8r]

Unfortunately, the pro-choice / pro-life issue is not as black and white as some wish to believe.

or is, the mother and baby are doing fine, the mother chose the life of her baby and god blessed her with a doctor who was able to make the cut.

[Lorianne]

Good post. I concur. The strongest abortion "rights" proponents I've met are men. you're right, there is not much talk about men's involvement and influence in abortion. There should be much more.

There actually has been some research into men's involvement in abortion. Turns out men are actively involved in an aboriton decision some 85% of the time. One could justifiably interpolate that men are influence abortion even more than that by simply making it clear they don't intend to be around. Men are NOT innocent bystanders in abortion in our country. I think many men would fight harder than women to keep it legal.

[The Giant Apricots]

Would you then support the instatement in law of a father's right to prevent the abortion of any baby he has biologically fathered in the course of consensual relations? If so, then you have a right to impugn the men who coerce their partners abortions. If not, than not. So?

[The Giant Apricots]

Bull.

[conservative cat]

No, I have not lived in Africa. However, it doesn't take living there to know that having an abortion when a doctor isn't qualified for c-sections is NOT the answer. The answer is doctors who are better trained for handling pregnancy and labor. Don't ask me how that is going to happen, but it's the right answer. The moral solution isn't always the easiest one. I am glad to hear that everyone survived! They are probably relieved that they chose to try to save both mother and child.

[Lorianne]

My main, secular argument against abortion is actually a matter of technology. Though I am a man, I find absolutely no justifiable reason for abortion in the year 2002. There hasn't been one in quite a long time.

I agree. There is probably some extremely rare circumstance which might justify an abortion, but this is so rare as to make the "life of the mother" arguments meaningless.

My view is that a woman who gets pregnant today gets pregnant due to one of two circumstances: 1. She is reckless, and/or 2. She views abortion as the ultimate in contraception.

No. Women "get pregnant" by having sex with men. A man and a woman co-concieve. Your male-less description is a BIG part of the problem with abortion. Also, not only women, but many men use abortion as a back up birth control measure in lieu of taking precautions themselves. Therefore, any man who does take personal steps to prevent conception and does not want a child is complicit is using abortion as his birth control method of choice. If he is pro-Life he is a hypocrite. Everyone involved in conception that ends in abortion is complicit in that abortion.

Think about it for a second. With the easily availability of condoms, birth control pills, and an IUD, how on earth is it possible for a woman to get pregnant if she really doesn't want to become pregnant in the first place?

This is untrue. There are no 100% reliable contraceptives. The best we have are 1)Sterilization 2)Redundant contraceptive measures. Even with those most reliable ones it is STILL possible to co-concieve. Anyone, man or woman, who wants 0% risk has only one choice, abstain from sex. Otherwise, it is a calculated risk on the part of BOTH parties. The default consequence of sex is conception. Therefore BOTH people have an obligation, not just the woman, to prevent conception. If they co-conceive and later agree to abort, then they were BOTH using abortion as their back-up birth control plan.

[ElkGroveDan]

ping

[Lorianne]

Would you then support the instatement in law of a father's right to prevent the abortion of any baby he has biologically fathered in the course of consensual relations?

Yes, I would support such a law. But I would go much further than that. I would include more strict laws on child abandonment and abdication of parental obligation.

[Lorianne]

Think about it for a second. With the easily availability of condoms, birth control pills, and an IUD, how on earth is it possible for a woman to get pregnant if she really doesn't want to become pregnant in the first place?

Oh it is VERY possible. I know of two cases personally.: 1. I know a couple who co-conceived after her husband had a vasectomy. (Yes it was his, they checked). They had the baby and the vasectomy doctor paid for the maternity and labor cost. :-)

2. I know a couple who co-conceived when the wife was 55 and the husband was 62. She had gone through (they thought) menopause. They also had the baby, the husband who was due to retire that year stayed on the job.

These are just the ones I know of personally. Lots of people conceive while on the Pill. The Pill is not as effective as everyone thinks. It can be compromised by common illnesses, stress, or other medications. Sometimes the doctor simply does not prescribe the right mix of hormones. There have been known factory errors too. Lots of problems.

Every method has problems and none is 100% reliable. The most reliable method is redundancy, Pill + condom for example.

[The Giant Apricots]

Sounds fair. Well met.

[William Terrell]

Bull

Who has the worse experience of it? Who generally makes out on the deal?

[The Giant Apricots]

Who has the worse experience of it?

The father of the baby, who under the USSC Danforth and Casey decision, has to know that the prenatal baby he sired is scheduled for execution.

Who generally makes out on the deal?

The one who has the legal power to cause the abortion to happen. That is absolute power, albeit in a Mephistolpholean way, to destroy only.

[William Terrell]

The father of the baby, who under the USSC Danforth and Casey decision, has to know that the prenatal baby he sired is scheduled for execution.

Knowing from a distant is worse than physically experiencing?

The one who has the legal power to cause the abortion to happen. That is absolute power, albeit in a Mephistolpholean way, to destroy only.

Putting scars in the body and on the soul to be rid of an 18 year responsibility is less agonizing than payiing a couple hundred bucks?
37 posted on 4/14/02 10:26 PM Pacific by The Giant Apricots

[rdb3]

No. Women "get pregnant" by having sex with men. A man and a woman co-concieve.

I thought that this was understood. That's why I didn't mention it.

Therefore, any man who does take personal steps to prevent conception and does not want a child is complicit is using abortion as his birth control method of choice. If he is pro-Life he is a hypocrite.

Well, my next statement is going to keep me in trouble with the sisters. Pregnancy, when it all boils down, is on the woman. A man can not, under any circumstance, get pregnant. Never! Therefore, the ultimate answer lies (no pun intended) with the woman. I'm not excusing irresponsible men, but let's face it. If a woman truly does not seek to get pregnant, she can either decline to have sex, or, take every means possible to thwart it. She can demand that the man wear a condom or say, "Nope. No nookie for you!" She can take birth control pills. If her body's hormones won't tolerate birth control pills, she can get an IUD. She can also use spermicidal products. The man can do this as well (prophylactics), but he's not the one who will get the pot belly. The woman will!

There are no 100% reliable contraceptives.

True. But, as a percentage, how many birth control pills fail? As a percentage, how many IUDs fail?

[PeteF]

The Declaration of Independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."