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Better to Be Feared Than Loved, cont.
The Weekly Standard ^ | 04/29/2002 | Reuel Marc Gerecht

Posted on 04/19/2002 9:20:34 PM PDT by Pokey78

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Comment #61 Removed by Moderator

To: Feenian
Which shows only that you are incapable of thinking about political science intelligently. Machiavelli addresses the question of whether the inspiration of love or fear (awe, respect) is a more valuable instrument in the execution of political authority. The issue does not arise in the example of Caligula: his power was absolute, and he was not interested in identifying principles of sound government; he was only interested in what he could get away.

The essay of Machievelli to which this article alludes (for the sake of the politically literate) identifies the reality that, in the domain of politics, the "love" of men is fickle and self-interested, a matter of convenience. Therefore, even if we were to send in our troops to Israel and set up gas chambers and march the entire Jewish population of Israel in to their deaths, the Arab street would only love us momentarily; they would perceive that the sacrifice of the Jews was nothing more than a feeble attempt to placate their ressentiment, their insatiable lust for destruction, and we would be back to square one, just like Neville Chamberlain before us.

62 posted on 04/20/2002 1:24:50 PM PDT by The Great Satan
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Comment #63 Removed by Moderator

To: Feenian
"Prejudiced nonsense. Egypt made peace with Israel. So did Jordan. How do you accommodate those facts? Sadat risked his life to shake hands with Begin. He did it because it was right. What's needed is enlightened leadership, not thugs like Arafat and Sharon."

Egypt made "peace" with Israel because Israel did exactly what my post advocated--kicked Arab ass. "..because it was right" wasn't part of the equation--it was the only way they could get the Sinai back. Jordan did so because they knew (and know) that Israel CAN "kick their ass" anytime they so desire.

My exposure to Arabs from many different nations happened long before the US was conceived as "the Great Satan", from Arab students who came to the US to attend American universities. The university I attended offered a major summer program in "English as a second language" and drew MANY foreign students (not just Arabs) who then fanned out from there to attend colleges and universities all over the US. I worked at the U. during those summers as a student residence-hall supervisor while also taking courses, and had close contact with all these folks. The Arabs were uniformly the biggest bunch of lying sneaks I have ever had the misfortune to be exposed to. And these were students from the very top strata of the "Arab intelligentsia". Is reality prejudice?? I don't think so.

What is YOUR first-hand experience with the "wonderful" Arabs, Feeny??

64 posted on 04/20/2002 1:57:28 PM PDT by Wonder Warthog
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To: Feenian
Its not jealous envy. Islam is a sytem of Aristocratic supression of the populace-the monarchies of Saudi Arabia pay off their potential adversaries (such as Osama) and encourage them to direct their frustration at the West. Judeo-Christianity provides the moral underpinnings for governmental restraint which has resulted in the freedoms enjoyed by the West and a standard of living that naturally follows such freedoms.
65 posted on 04/20/2002 2:33:45 PM PDT by mo
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To: Feenian
You know, the Arabs are a proud people. Their civilization once surpassed the West's.

Until they turned to Islam and went to live in the dark ages. They may or may not have been ahead once ---but they've allowed themselves to become a bunch of backward inbreds.

66 posted on 04/20/2002 2:36:33 PM PDT by FITZ
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To: Feenian
Have you ever talked with Persians about how the Arabs are? They don't describe them in very complimentary ways and they certainly don't seem to believe they're very advanced.
67 posted on 04/20/2002 2:39:07 PM PDT by FITZ
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Comment #68 Removed by Moderator

Comment #69 Removed by Moderator

To: Feenian
Tsk, tsk tsk, little supercilious newbie. I've read Pliny, Julius Caesar, Cicero, Virgil, Ovid and many others ... in Latin. I long ago read Gibbon, Van Loon, Suetonius, Plutarch and a host of other historians ; probably before you got out of diapers. You need a reread of the Punic Wars ; instead of continually watching Mel Brook's " HISTORY OF THE WORLD, PART II " so often. : - )

You have a new date of membership, but perhaps you're just an " oldie " , who's been banned. Keep up the childish personal insults, and you'll be so again.

None of this; however , has anything at all to do with the thread's topic and your shilling for terrorists, misuse of the English language, or abject lack of understansing about what it will take to defeat enemies. So, unless you are capable of better debate, spare us all your sophestry. Oh, and by the by, you left out forces air heat, an almost modern flush lav, and an unheard of religious tolerance, as Roman accomplishments and introductions to barbaric soceties.

70 posted on 04/20/2002 8:06:17 PM PDT by nopardons
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Comment #71 Removed by Moderator

To: Pokey78
BTTT.
72 posted on 04/20/2002 8:56:28 PM PDT by newwahoo
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Comment #73 Removed by Moderator

To: Feenian
Hmmmmmmm ... you don't know me , nor what I know about ancient civilzations, yet you personally attacked me . When you got it back, all you could do is whine, whimper, whinge , and arrogantly go off on a pedantic, self aggrondizing , boring pedagogic tangent. I know everything you wrote, and more. Since you evidently adore trotting out such inane trivia, shall I now write you an elvating monlith about Titslinger, the inventor of the modern Bra ? Oh yes, and they had thse , as well as bikinis , in ancient Rome.

Anyone , who has read Ovid ( and I have ... in the original Latin and several English translations, dear ) knows that they used toothbrushes ; of a sort. Real, MODERN toothbrushes ; however, weren't around until Victorian England. Since this isn't a game of Trivial Pusuit, dear, all of these silly Ripley Believe It or Nots , are irrelivant, juvenile, purile , inane, and banal.

Were you at the Pro-Pali rally, in D.C. today ? If not, why not ? That's a more seminal query and addendum to this thread. : - )

BTW, you aren't impressing anyone around here, with your posts. They are neither pertinent, nor on topic. As a matter offact, thus far, you appear to be only an excellent waster of bandwidth ; someone incredibly devoid of a capacity to stay focused and enamoured of your own voice. : - ) Sooooooooooo , find a mirror, and do talk to yourself. Maybe you should write yourself E-mails. At least then , someone will appreciate what you have written. LOL

74 posted on 04/20/2002 10:43:30 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: Feenian
If your Arabs were so advanced before, then why are they so primitive now? Also I don't think the Spaniards thought the Arabs brought them some kind of high culture because they fought many years to get rid of them from Spain.
75 posted on 04/21/2002 2:44:56 AM PDT by FITZ
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To: Feenian
The Muslim Arabs are a bunch of hypocrits ---they hate Israel because it is Jews living in the Middle East and the Arabs can't stand the thought of non-Muslims in the Middle East. And yet there are Muslim Arabs living all over Europe and in the US ---- quite a double standard they have. Any accomplishment the Arabs ever had was before they started Islam.
76 posted on 04/21/2002 2:48:27 AM PDT by FITZ
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To: Feenian
The Middle East conflict has nothing in the least to do with any so-called oppression. It is entirely due to the fact that so few Jews being so much more powerful than so many Arabs humiliates and emasculates them. Because Israel exists, every Arab man feels like a capon. Indeed, if the Israelis converted to Islam tomorrow they could treat the Palestinians in a typically barbaric Islamic manner and no one anywhere would have any problem with that. This is entirely about a wounded sense of entitlement.

Once upon a time, practically every great city in the world outside of China, India, Kyoto, and Constantinople was Muslim. Once upon a time the Muslim world was civilized. But since 1600, when the Muslim world decided to turn its back on science and learning and modernity it has become as decadent and corrupted as a family too rich too long. Now it is incapable of producing anything higher than the car bomb. It exports only oil and terrorism, producing nothing requiring brainpower. It is natural that a civiliation that utterly lacking in creativity, that incapable of assuming any responsibility for its actions would respond only with spite and envy at a world that passes it by. Israel is technologically superior because it has a creative, intelligent, forward looking, brave and innovative people. The Arab world can only buy machines that they haven't the competence to use or maintain much less build for themselves because they are lazy, by turns boastful and cringing, fundamentally incompetent, childish, venal, and crippled by a bloated grandiosity. Societies have personalities and some personalities are just plain better than others.

77 posted on 04/21/2002 8:47:16 PM PDT by Tokhtamish
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Comment #78 Removed by Moderator

To: Feenian
Ascribing Israeli strength solely or even primarily to US backing is false. The 1948 War was fought with the same WW2 surplus equipment on both sides. Who won ? There was no qualitative difference between the Mysteres and Ouragons of the Israeli Air Force and the Mig 15/17's of the Egyptian Air Force in 1956. Again in 1967 when the Israeli Air Force used primarily Mirages, the Arab armies disintegrated because they were poorly led and poorly trained, not because of ANY technological gap. In 1967 the Egyptian officers, like the Iraqi officers of 1991, deserted their frontline units and fled to save their skins, something no Israeli officer would ever do. Arab armies have a consistent history of looking good on paper but disintegrating in combat like the Soviet Army did in Byelorussia in June, 1941.

It has nothing to do with technology per se. It is a matter of culture. Let us take an example. An infantry unit is advancing and the officer out front is killed. Arab soldiers accustomed to despotism, accustomed to a society where only a fool would choose to bring attention or responsibility on himself or act without permission, would simply huddle leaderless. In an Israeli unit, someone will step forward and say "Come on, follow me" and the attack will be pressed forward. People who are the products of a culture of freedom feel safe to step forward and take chances.

Commodity wealth seems to have the cultural effects of easy money. It rots the national character and there is such a thing as national character. It corrupted Spanish society, it corrupted Argentine society, it corrupts Nigerian society, it corrupts Arab society. It fosters a national character of grossly entitled trust fund brats, of swaggering sheikhs/hidalgos, of get rich quick thieves and scammers, of a cultural disinclination to effort and hard work and rising on the basis of what you can do instead of who you know. It fosters conceit, grandiosity, entitlement, and mental and physical laziness. There is no sign of Arab society developing any capacity of actually making or producing things. There is every sign that like Argentina once the wartime boom profits ran out and there was nothing left for the Peronists to redistribute the country simply sank out of the developed world because its people refused to grow up, that the Arab world will simply sink into fundamentalism and rage and poverty and delusions of grandiosity.

There are those in the Arab world who see the signs and would like to turn it around. There were those who tried to save 17th century Spain and 20th century Argentina and the Ottoman Empire. But they could not prevail in the face of cultural inertia and so it will be with Islam.

79 posted on 04/22/2002 7:17:52 AM PDT by Tokhtamish
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To: Feenian
Feenian, what you all describe are aspects of Arab civilization - NOT the brutal religion the majority of them subscribe. It is readily apparent that the mathematical and medical innovations from the Arabs came NOT from Islam, but from the culture itself, prior to Islam asserting its violent and cruel reign. Since Islam conquered these lands by the sword, the innovations have died. What innovations currently come from the dictatorships of Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Egypt, and other Islamic countries? Nothing significant.

The fact of the matter is - these countries, and the world, would be better off without Islam. Islam in almost every case has meant dictatorship, oppressive regimes, and a horrific persecution of other religions.

80 posted on 04/22/2002 7:38:23 AM PDT by fogarty
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