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To: anniegetyourgun
You have a valid point of view, but it holds no legal water.

Under current marriage law, men and women are treated as separate-but-equal. Men have one right that women do not have (the right to marry women), and women have a right that men do not have (the right to marry men). When the issue comes before the court, it will be an argument of gender discrimination. The question of unequal treatment of the genders here is indisputable. I've used this argument here before, and no one has denied that yes, men and women are treated differently with this policy.

I can hear it now..
"But men and women are biologically different."
"But it's not natural."
"But but marriage has always been this way."
"But what about the children?"
"But the sanctity of marriage must be protected!"
"But.. Bowers v Hardwick..."

You can "but.." all you want. None of these exceptions to Equal Protection are written into the Constitution. Any judges claiming that these excuses outweigh the right to Equal Protection are guilty of judicial activism, and good conservatives only enforce laws that are actually on the books, right? Equal Protection is on the books; these objections to equal marriage policy are not.
I've read the Constitution up-and-down many many times, and there is no such exception to the Equal Protection Clause for the case of the genders in the legal institution of marriage.

There is hope for you though. One group, the Alliance for Marriage, has realized the legal reality of this separate-but-equal policy. They're currently working to amend the Constitution such that only an opposite-sex couple can be legally married. If you wish for this to be the case, I strongly suggest you support them. Time is ticking, and tommorrow's political and media leaders will be even more pro-gay than ever.

Call me liberal, call me any epithet you want, point-out that I registered here today, spew lofty rehtoric about the decline of morals, etc.. it sounds pretty and inspiring, but it's no substitute for live ammunition in court. It still doesn't change the validity of my argument.

And fear not. When gay marriage is legalized, you will still retain the right to teach your children that homosexuality is wrong. You will also retain the right to not practice homosexuality, the right to voice moral & political opposition to homosexuality, the right to lobby for anti-homosexual rights laws, the right to have your church condemn and/or not recognize same-gender marriages, etc. None of your constitutional rights will disappear, and you will still have the comfort of knowing that regardless of what laws we pass here, sodomites will burn in hell.

Have a nice Sunday.

"The Constitution neither knows nor tolerates classes among its citizens." -Romer v Evans, Justice Kennedy, 1996
7 posted on 04/21/2002 8:47:17 AM PDT by strictconstruct
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To: strictconstruct
"The question of unequal treatment of the genders here is indisputable."

Marriage is between one man and one woman. There are but two genders - male and female. There is no discrimination in marriage for those who claim to be homosexual or lesbian. A homosexual male still has the right to marry a woman. The lesbian still has the right to marry a man.

Taking your relativistic approach, you cannot deny a 40 year old to marry a 3 year old. You cannot deny a man to marry his goat. You cannot deny 3 men to marry 1 woman.

Laws are created for social order and for the good of society. There is no such thing as "gay marriage" because it is an oxymoron. There is but one definition of marriage.

I recognize you have no desire to see social order or for laws that might provide constraint. But the utopia you see in your mind will never exist due to evil in the world. Civil governments (which should certainly be limited) are still there to place constraints around that evil in society. Despite what you may think, there is still a place for law and government.

9 posted on 04/21/2002 9:00:04 AM PDT by anniegetyourgun
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To: strictconstruct;anniegetyourgun
So what is the secular purpose of marriage?
13 posted on 04/21/2002 9:18:14 AM PDT by Tribune7
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To: strictconstruct
What about "equal protection" applied to individuals and not couples?

Gay advocates of "domestic partnerships" are in effect saying to other homosexuals, that it is only acceptable to be "gay" as long as other homosexuals conform to their hypocritical standard of monogamy. The general public discussion about marriage, homosexuality and "domestic partners," does not address the central issue - - monogamy is a sectarian establishment of religion in the law and violates the First Amendment’s prohibition "regarding an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

Various homosexual pressure groups that claim to support "equality" never address bisexuality and the idea that a bisexual is not allowed to benefit from relationships with persons of both sexes. Nor are they, the Left Wing Media, and Left Wing Educational Establishment willing to discuss polygyny or polyandry, which are, or have been traditions for Muslims, Mormons, Hebrews, Hindus, Buddhists and Africans, as well as other Pagan cultures. The two sides currently represented in the same-sex marriage debate both want special rights for monogamists. However, the proponents of heterosexual only marriages are willing to concede that a homosexual has just as much a right to marry a person of the opposite sex as any heterosexual does. [Incidentally, the desire to have children is a heterosexual desire.]

Nowhere in the religious texts of the above mentioned cultures is there a prohibition of polygamy and I challenge any scholar of theology, literature or history to refute it with proof from the Judeo-Christian Bible, Holy Qur’an, Mahabharata, Rig Veda, or Dhammapada. The ignorance of these historical and cultural facts is evidence of the failed public education system and the fig leaf covering the personal bias of certain staff members in the Left Wing Press and Left Wing Educational Establishment concerning facts, reporting them and/or teaching them.

To allow an institution of homosexual marriage in a monogamous form requires some sort of moralistic meandering to justify it and prohibit any form of polygamy. Upon what basis, if we are to assume it is discrimminatory to not allow homosexuals to "marry," can there be a prohibition of the varying forms of polygamy? Especially, since the First Amendment is specific in forbidding an establishment of religion in the law and is supposed to protect the people's right to assemble peaceably? The entire issue of "same-sex" marriage hinges upon the assumption that monogamy is the only form of marriage. I contend that it is based upon human biological reproduction and is outside of the government's authority to regulate in regard to the First Amendment...

To bolster some of my assertions:

-

"What gay ideologues, inflated like pink balloons with poststructuralist hot air, can't admit, of course, is that heterosexuality is nature's norm, enforced by powerful hormonal cues at puberty. In the past decade, one shoddy book after another, rapturously applauded by p.c. reviewers, has exaggerated the incidence of homosexuality in the animal world and, without due regard for reproductive adaptations caused by environmental changes, toxins or population pressure, reductively interpreted bonding or hierarchical behavior as gay in the human sense."

About the writer: Camille Paglia is professor of humanities and media studies at the University of the Arts in Philadelphia.

-

The issue of polygamy is an Achille's heel for both popular sides of the same-sex marriage issue. The advocates have to resort to a litany of moralistic meandering based upon the creationist philosophy they claim to oppose to justify it. Both want special rights for preferred groups and are not interested in the individual freedoms of free association. They both want an establishment of religion in the law no matter how much they will deny that.

Unless you like conforming to the religionist dictates, I suggest you and others re-examine the B.S. the guardians of political correctness on the Religious Left have been feeding you.

The First Amendment is very unambiguous. The creationist cultural patent of monogamy is an establishment of religion in the law. The idea that some people get a preferred status based upon their personal relationships goes against the idea of individual rights and the idea of equal protection before the law. What of the people's right peaceably to assemble? It does not take an advanced legal education to comprehend the very clear language of the First Amendment. I say the federal and state governments have no Constitutional authority to be in the marriage business at all, except where each individual has a biological responsibility for any offspring they produce. With "reproductive rights," there must be reproductive responsibilities.

In addition, prohibition of polygyny, polyandry and various forms of polygamy (which includes bisexuals) is not consistent with Roe v. Wade - - society has no right to intervene in private reproductive choices. The recent case of a polygynist being prosecuted in Utah is a great example. Do the women associated with the man who fathered those children have a "right to choose" who they want to mate and produce offspring with? Does the man have a right to choose concerning the production of his progeny? Roe v. Wade says societal intervention in private reproductive choices is a violation of individual liberties. What implication does this also have concerning welfare and public funding of abortions? The issue of polygamy tears down a lot of the sacred cows.

BEFORE YOU REACT TO WHAT I AM SAYING, THINK ABOUT WHY I AM SAYING IT...

The so-called empowerment of women and rights of women have been appropriated by a few to mean rights of the few and no longer means an individual woman’s right to equal treatment. Some would emphasize the "inalienable right" of women to decide whether or not to bear a child. This has the effect of defining women as reproductive units rather than as human beings. Real women’s rights would emphasize greater opportunities for education and employment instead of emphasizing a cult of fertility which leads to economic dependency on men and the rest of society, including homosexual men and women who do not reproduce.

The inaccuracies concerning the political economy of sex as portrayed by pro-"choice" advocates deserve a thorough review: Reproductive "choice" is made when two heterosexual people decide to engage in adult relations, not after the fact. The desire to have children is a heterosexual desire. Provided it is a consenting relationship, no woman is forced to become pregnant. Modern science and capitalism (see: Ayn Rand’s Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal and Camille Paglia’s Sexual Personae) have provided methods to give women pre-emptive power over the forces of nature. No woman has control over her body; only nature does. It is modern Western Civilization that gives women power over nature, not Roe v. Wade. [Incidentally, Roe v. Wade, if strictly interpreted, would prohibit public funding for abortion since public funding for abortion is a form of societal intervention in reproduction - - the very thing prohibited by Roe v. Wade.] One may reply Roe v. Wade is part of a larger good called "women’s rights," but this is really a disguise, consigning other women (those who don’t reproduce or those who oppose abortion) to second class citizenship.

This topic is applicable to homosexuality, both the male and female variety, as well as to sexual crimes. The choice to engage in any type of sexual activity is an individual’s, provided of course, he or she is not victim of a sexual assault. It is absurd to claim the rapist has no control over his actions and it is equally ridiculous to say a homosexual does not have a choice not to involve him or herself with another. The same is true for heterosexual females - - being a woman is not an excuse for making poor choices. The idea that "the choice to have an abortion should be left up to a woman" does not take into account the lack of a choice to pay for such services rendered: The general public is forced to pay massive subsidies for other people sex lives. Emotive claims that the decision to have an abortion is a private one is refuted by the demands of those same people who want public funding for their private choices and/or mistakes.

An adult male or female can be sent to the penitentiary for engaging in carnal pleasures with a minor. One female schoolteacher had become the focus of national attention because she produced a child with her juvenile student. She went to prison while pregnant the second time from the very same child student. Courts allowing a minor female to have an abortion without parental consent or notification can destroy evidence of a felony (such as molestation, rape or incest). Those courts and judges therein have become complicit in the destruction of evidence and are possible accessories in the commission of a felony.

Another source of amazement is the concept of those who hold candlelight vigils for heinous murderers about to be executed, a large number of whom think it is acceptable to murder an unborn child without the benefit of a trial. Is the "right to life" of one responsible for much murder and mayhem more important than that of a truly innocent unborn child? Perhaps we should call capital punishment "post-natal abortion" and identify abortion as a "pre-natal death sentence" or "pre-natal summary execution." Your "reproductive freedom" is my economic and environmental tyranny.

16 posted on 04/21/2002 9:29:59 AM PDT by Sir Francis Dashwood
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To: strictconstruct
"The Constitution neither knows nor tolerates classes among its citizens." Romer v. Evans, Justice Kennedy, 1996

Justice Kennedy was simply repeating a famous line from Justice Harlan's dissent in Plessy v. Ferguson (Oct. Term, 1895):

"Our Constitution is color-blind, and neither knows nor tolerates classes among citizens."

24 posted on 04/21/2002 10:00:31 AM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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