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"Gun Rights Do Not Compute," Say Media Cyborgs
RichardPoe.com ^ | May 10, 2002 | Richard Poe

Posted on 05/10/2002 10:35:56 AM PDT by Richard Poe

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To: Gianni
18" is the minimum legal length for the barrel of a shotgun and overall length can be no less than 26".

(If I remember correctly, Randy Weaver's trouble started because of overall length.)

For rifles, barrels must be no less than 16".

Of course, individuals who hold "Class III" licenses can legally own "short-barreled" shotguns and rifles, in addition to full-auto weapons.

When you legally purchase a variety of firearms, in a State like Massachusetts, you find these things out. 8-)

Regards

41 posted on 05/12/2002 10:49:32 AM PDT by Tinman
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To: Richard Poe
That's what I thought -- the actual conclusions in Miller pertained to the scope of which weapons, not which people, are covered by Second Amendment protection.
42 posted on 05/12/2002 10:56:03 AM PDT by steve-b
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To: Tinman
"...Of course, individuals who hold "Class III" licenses can legally own "short-barreled" shotguns and rifles, in addition to full-auto weapons."

Yes, but most citizens in most states can just pay a $200 tax to the Treasury and accomplish the same thing.

43 posted on 05/12/2002 10:59:40 AM PDT by The KG9 Kid
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To: Richard Poe
"Two gangsters named Jack Miller and Frank Layton had been charged with transporting an unregistered short-barreled or "sawed-off" shotgun across state lines."

They weren't gangsters, they were hillrods with a still out in the woods. The BATF(revenuer) was after them for operating a still w/o payin' the tax. Miller had a sawed off on the front seat of his truck. The agent remembered the new tax law covering these things and wrote him up for that too. Miller, having little concern for anything that complicated his life, never showed up for the SC trial. They couldn't find him to notify him anyway. Since Miller was a no show, no one countered the newly FDR packed SC judges' contention the sawed off wasn't a valid militia weapon.

There never was a trial. It was a one sided claim and unoposed finding. That's hardly something to hold up as a valid precedent in light of the founder's writings and the statements made during other SC cases denying the rights of blacks.

44 posted on 05/12/2002 11:03:14 AM PDT by spunkets
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To: an amused spectator
Great post. It is interesting to see the contortions required when one works back from a predetermined conclusion.
45 posted on 05/12/2002 11:04:35 AM PDT by MileHi
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To: spunkets
There never was a trial.

Not exactly. Miller won in the lower court, thereby setting up the SCOTUS hearing.

46 posted on 05/12/2002 11:12:51 AM PDT by MileHi
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To: MileHi
That's right. I was refering to the lack of opposition at the SCOTUS.
47 posted on 05/12/2002 11:20:48 AM PDT by spunkets
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To: Richard Poe
If the liberals want our guns, they can come a try to take them. Of course, they send federal nutjobs with guns to do their dirty work, just like the commies they are.
48 posted on 05/12/2002 2:24:21 PM PDT by PatrioticAmerican
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To: The KG9 Kid
Really?

I've always been under the impression that paying the tax was all that was required from 1934 to 1968 but after the GCA of '68, it became necessary to obtain proper government permission to own the "real good stuff".

Any idea what states do not require "Class III" licensing? I may consider relocating. 8-)

Regards

49 posted on 05/13/2002 7:07:41 AM PDT by Tinman
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To: Tinman
You live in Texas, correct?

I think you pretty much have your bases covered, as long as your local 'Chief Law Enforcement Officer' is a decent sort that will sign off for you.

You can start the process right where you're sitting, Tinman.

50 posted on 05/13/2002 9:01:38 AM PDT by The KG9 Kid
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To: spunkets
They weren't gangsters, they were hillrods with a still out in the woods.

According to the always-reliable Dr. Michael S. Brown, Jack Miller was "a bank robber and moonshiner..."

If Miller's business had been confined to moonshining, I wouldn't describe him as a "gangster," but I think anyone who robs banks probably deserves the "gangster" label.

51 posted on 05/13/2002 10:03:46 AM PDT by Richard Poe
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To: Texasforever
"I used to have a statistic that said something like "95% of gunplay takes place at 15 feet or less. At that range, I would have trouble thinking of a better weapon than a street sweeper with a 10" barrel, regardless of pattern."

They don't call them scatter guns for nothing and that is the reason they are illegal.

I doubt if ANYone knows exactly why sawed/offs were unconstitutionally made illegal, but YOU are the first clown I've ever seen that said it was because of the 'scatter' effect. -- Weird.

Yes, if you are fighting a head on battle with someone then those that you hit are legitimate targets however, if anyone is even close to the action they are going to be hit or in danger of it, innocent or not.

'Even close'? The closer you are to a 'scattergun', the tighter the pattern, which is very tight with modern day loads at say 15 feet; -- might be maxed at six to 10 inches, depending much more on pellet shape & count, or wadding, than a usable barrel length or choke. Typically, a true cylinder bore shotgun will throw a 20 inch pattern at 10 yards, 32" at 20, 44" at 40yds, etc.

maneuverability in tight quarters is the goal then the defender is more than adequate and the shot distribution is at least somewhat controllable by the shooter.

Your knowlege of guns rivals that of your views on the constitution, tex. Totally SNAFUed.

52 posted on 05/13/2002 11:16:06 AM PDT by tpaine
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To: Richard Poe
I read an account of his arrest, it only mentioned that he was a moonshiner. It's been awhile, so I don't remember all of what happened after the arrest. I'll try to dig it up, but I won't be able to do that 'till the weekend.
53 posted on 05/13/2002 2:35:47 PM PDT by spunkets
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To: Texasforever
They don't call them scatter guns for nothing and that is the reason they are illegal.

How does the shot pattern of a shotgun with an 18.1" barrel and 26.1" overall length compare with that of a bull-pup shotgun that has an 18.1" barrel and 19.5" overall length?

54 posted on 05/13/2002 4:52:26 PM PDT by supercat
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To: Richard Poe
IN THE CLASSIC STAR TREK episode "I, Mudd," Captain Kirk short-circuits a dangerous android by talking circles around it.

Illogical. Norman, coordinate.

-PJ

55 posted on 05/13/2002 4:56:53 PM PDT by Political Junkie Too
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To: supercat
We will get no answers from our texas gun 'experts'.

They grab at scattergun straws to justify 'gun regulations' by big brother governments, but when facts refute them, -- they simply ignore them.

They rationalize, accommodate, and appease both fed & state gun grabbers, as is evident in this latest Emerson/Ashcroft flap.
-- Why? I guess you gotta go along to get along, in their book.
Disgusting attitude, - in mine.

56 posted on 05/13/2002 5:19:16 PM PDT by tpaine
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To: tpaine
We will get no answers from our texas gun 'experts'.

Of course not. BTW, what do you think of my concept for a home-defense weapon: a bull-pup 28-ga semi-auto choked down to .499", with a downward "fork" on the stock beind the grip which would go on either side of the shooter's forearm? Such a thing would, I would thing, be very hard to grab from a shooter (since if the OAL were 26" only 12" would be in front of the grip, as opposed to 14" behind). If the payload of a 28ga round isn't considered adequate, a longer version of the cartridge (3.5" or 4") could be developed.

57 posted on 05/13/2002 5:49:50 PM PDT by supercat
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To: supercat;All
Have you seen the new Aguila 1.33 inch 12 ga. mini shells?
Four #1 buck(.30 cal) and seven 4B (.24 Cal)pellets.
Velocity 1200 fps. Cute little boogers,bet you can fit a bunch into an extended mag tube.

Where there's a will there's a way.

58 posted on 05/13/2002 6:08:05 PM PDT by tet68
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To: tet68
Cute little boogers,bet you can fit a bunch into an extended mag tube.

Until someone declares many semi-auto shotguns to be "assault weapons" since their 4-round magazines hold too many rounds.

59 posted on 05/13/2002 7:13:56 PM PDT by supercat
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To: supercat
Good idea, but why base it on a 28 ga.? As per tet's ammo post, the options in 12 ga ammo more than make up for any weight penalty. In fact, I hear the new 50 cal sabot slugs damn near make the 12 ga. into a 100 yd rifle.
60 posted on 05/13/2002 10:23:12 PM PDT by tpaine
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