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To: jordan8
As usual, more knee-jerking from the whacked-out fringe.

Of course, he needs to publish a letter--which, pardon my saying so, sounds like a put-up job--wherein the correspondent allegedly says "I don't care what freedoms are lost." That's so he can make a stark contrast, make the other side sound reckless.

Well, I DO care what freedoms are lost, and WE HAVE LOST FREEDOM as a result of 9-11. Have you taken a plane lately? Notice anything different? To me, the REALLY "reckless" thing would be to insist that the Jose Padillas of the world get a "fair civil trial" and that law enforcement agencies shall not take steps to protect us because someone's phone conversation with Aunt Flo (or an illicit lover) might be compromised.

The history of this nation in wartime is that we give up certain MINOR freedoms temporarily in order to sustain the conflict and thwart our enemies.

During WWII, there was rationing of food, clothing, gasoline and just about every basic necessity. We were no longer FREE to buy at leisure what we wanted at any quantity.

Also, government agents were EVERYWHERE, working against the fifth-columnists that had infiltrated our borders, bent upon sabotage and intelligence gathering.

Funny, at the time there weren't many voices raised in outrage. Why? Because the OUTRAGE of Pearl Harbor trumped everything. WE were determined to win, and we were willing to roll up our sleeves, and make sacrifices to get it done.

Now, we're a nation of panty-waists like Boortz, who can't see the threat from outside because he's too busy living in the Clinton years.

If we end up losing this thing, however you want to define "losing," it will be for the same reason we "lost" in Vietnam: The national will is gone.

It's just too bad I have to hear all this sh*t from the conservative side. It makes me ashamed.

5 posted on 06/18/2002 6:16:56 AM PDT by Illbay
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To: Illbay
It's just too bad I have to hear all this sh*t from the conservative side. It makes me ashamed.

And all this time I thought you didn't have any...

15 posted on 06/18/2002 7:10:00 AM PDT by EternalVigilance
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To: Illbay
It's just too bad I have to hear all this sh*t from the conservative side.

If you can't abide hearing the voice of principle, stick your fingers in your ears and hum real loud.

16 posted on 06/18/2002 7:13:04 AM PDT by steve-b
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To: Illbay
To me, the REALLY "reckless" thing would be to insist that the Jose Padillas of the world get a "fair civil trial" and that law enforcement agencies shall not take steps to protect us because someone's phone conversation with Aunt Flo (or an illicit lover) might be compromised.

Your solution is far worse than reckless. Padillas is a US citizen. In that regard he is equal to both of us. If you want to strip him of his citizenship and try him in a military court, I'm good with that. If you want to treat him unconstitutionally because you don't like his crime, I have a problem with that.

Are there any other LE powers that you would like to see exapnded other than the universal phone tap?

18 posted on 06/18/2002 7:22:43 AM PDT by Joe Driscoll
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To: Illbay
The history of this nation in wartime is that we give up certain MINOR freedoms temporarily in order to sustain the conflict and thwart our enemies.

We were governed by better people then - Representatives who had real educations, who understood history and what the Constitution meant, and how rare and priceless Amrerica's freedoms were. Of course such men returned things to "normal" once the war had ended.

The story is different today. Once our Democratic Socialist legislature gets their hands on "emergency powers", they will never, ever give them up.

Caution is called for. The Patriot Act was passed much too quickly, and it will have ramifications down the road that we have not yet forseen.

30 posted on 06/18/2002 8:44:49 AM PDT by Mr. Jeeves
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To: Illbay
Yea, that Due Process thing is overrated anyway....

L

43 posted on 06/18/2002 9:19:59 AM PDT by Lurker
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To: Illbay
The whiners are primarily pretend conservatives who don't understand the constitution they claim to be protecting. Since they line up consistently with the RATS to squawk about the President, I assume they are really undercover RATS or Libertarians (thus, I expect no rational thought merely pious platitudes.)

It will take thousands of additional deaths before these morons wake up and realize that we are faced with millions of murdering, maniacal, morons following Mad Mohammed (piss be upon his head.)

Americans are too spoiled to make any sacrifice and will likely demonstrate just that by returning hundreds of RATS to office this fall making the job of our president virtually impossible.

47 posted on 06/18/2002 9:40:52 AM PDT by justshutupandtakeit
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To: Illbay
If we end up losing this thing, however you want to define "losing," it will be for the same reason we "lost" in Vietnam: The national will is gone.

Wisdom.

59 posted on 06/18/2002 10:14:06 AM PDT by Pentagram
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To: Illbay
My concern regarding civil liberties is the loss of these rights for average, American, law-abiding citizens. Theya re most definitely being upheld for illegals, terrorists and others who wish us harm.

To me, 9/11 was every bit as horrible as Pearl Harbor, but the reaction from our leaders was so different.

Not a fan of FDR, but can you imagine soon after Pearl Harbor, if FDR went barefooted to a Japanese temple (I am not sure what religion the majority of Japanese are, but just as a illustration) and spoke of being tolerant and understanding to the Japanese people. Then there came a flurry of 'tolerance-speak', and we were told not to be angry with the Japanese people, it was just the leaders and military that caused this problem. Then the AG make tolerance speeches and then threats to American citizens if they were not 'tolerant'. What if the new media had daily shown isolated (and I believe that) cases of 'intolerance' and showed the same picture of a temple with a car driven into it and a temple with a broken window and denounced it as barbaric, etc. What if on any given day in the major newspapers, there were editorials and letters to the editor concerning the horrible, intolerant Americans and their attitude toward the Japanese.

On top of that, our President refused to close the borders or even protect it, suppose the head of the INS made speeches to the border patrol to 'shut up and live with it'.

If these things had happened, America would not have had the will to win the war and I do not believe we have the will to win this war against terrorism.

We gave away so many of our rights to stop drugs. I heard the same rhetoric regarding this. "If it will save one child from drugs, they can search my car, etc.", and look at how they have used and abused this. We have a law enforcement agency that is a rural drug enforcement agency. I am not sure of the official name, but they can stop you anytime and search your car. They stopped my son coming home from work late one night, and asked to search his car. He asked them why and they said drugs. When he asked what would happen if he said no, they said they would impound his car and search it anyway. Now anyone with an ounce of sense knows if you make these guys angry, they are going to 'find' something. They accused him of making drugs since his hands were stained - his is a mechanic!!!!!! He chose the better part of valor and let them search and they let him go - without an apology.

84 posted on 06/18/2002 11:04:23 AM PDT by nanny
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To: Illbay
Thank you.
110 posted on 06/18/2002 3:16:23 PM PDT by swheats
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To: Illbay
I authorize NO ONE to barter my freedom for some promise of security. The Constitution disallows all such solutions. (Or rather, show me WHERE it does authorize.) Tyrants and their fools ignore it at their own peril. On this matter I am most sincerely nonsporting.
118 posted on 06/18/2002 3:50:42 PM PDT by nonsporting
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To: Illbay
Well, I DO care what freedoms are lost, and WE HAVE LOST FREEDOM as a result of 9-11. Have you taken a plane lately?

Actually, as far as airports/planes, you have been inconvenienced...you haven't lost freedoms..

You don't have to fly on a plane or even enter an airport...it's just more convenient than driving cross-country.

158 posted on 06/18/2002 7:45:36 PM PDT by HennepinPrisoner
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