Posted on 04/25/2002 7:05:58 PM PDT by RnMomof7
I fully agree on both statements!
.A man in bondage to sin will always choose sin. That is his nature..he is in a sense addicted to sin. We are not born in a "neutral zone" , but enemies of God ...by nature "children of wrath"
Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Where did that analogy originate?? It does not seem rooted in scripture??
Thanks for the ping, will read it later.
| FreeChoice Position. | Scripture | Implication | Calvinist Objection | Calvinist Implication |
| 1. - - God elects only on the basis of foreseen faith and condemns only on the basis of resistance to grace. | John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined Joshua 24:15 Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve...But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord ." Revelation 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. |
People go to heaven or hell based on their own choices for or against Christ. God foreknew their choice. | U - - Unconditional Election means that God has elected for His own glory, in accordance with His own will and without regard for the merit of those elected, some for salvation and some to be left in their sins. | God chooses whether or not any individual will be saved. He chooses based on his own reasons which he has not revealed. |
| 2. - - Christ provided a universal opportunity by dying for all men and for every man such that ALL those who turn to him as true repentant believers are saved. | 1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. Acts 17:25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. |
The opportunity for Salvation is available to everyone. Christ's sacrifice is sufficient to cover all sin. Everyone is allowed to come to Christ. | L - - Limited Atonement means that Christ died specifically and only for the sins of those who would ever truly believe in Him.. | Christ's sacrifice was intended only for those who were chosen ahead of time for salvation. Everyone is not allowed to come to Christ. |
| 3. - - - In accordance with the foreplanning of God, man was created with the ability to resist Divine Grace | Acts 7:50 Has not my hand made all these things?'[1] 51"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! 52Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him-- Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. |
In the same way humanity has been endowed with the capacity to say "yes" to God, it has also been endowed with the capacity to resist, to say "no," to God's offer of the gospel. | I - - Irresistible Grace means that the elect are incapable of resisting the Holy Spirit's inward call to repentance and salvation | Those God chose for salvation are unable to say "no" to salvation due to God's overpowering them with his attractiveness. (Neither are the non-chosen able to say "yes." God never attempts to attract them.) |
| FreeChoice Position. | Scripture | Implication | Calvinist Objection | Calvinist Implication |
| 4. - - - Pre-regenerate Man is so depraved that foreplanned divine intervention and prevenient divine grace are necessary to bring about faith or any good deed. | John 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[1] it.... . 9The true light that gives light to EVERY man was coming into the world.[2] Romans 2:14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their CONSCIENCES also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) |
The Spirit of Christ, based on the pure grace of God, gives enough light to every human, speaks sufficiently to each human heart, despite its inherent sinfulness, such that each person is confronted with a real, complete choice for or against God. . | T - - Total Depravity means that Natural Man is totally sinful and does not ever WANT in his own spirit to know Christ | Humanity does not have an effective conscience, nor does any man have, before regeneration, any internal capability to receive any good message from God. There is no residue of the image of God remaining in pre-regeneration man. |
| 5. - - - It is not certain from the bible that all who are truly regenerate will necessarily persevere in the faith. | John 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. 2 Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. |
The Christian does best who obeys Christ's direction, "Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming." It is best to have oil in your lamp, as did the wise virgins. | P - - Perseverance of the Saints means that all those who are truly saved will certainly be brought to heaven and to glorification and will never be lost | Once Saved; always Saved! There is nothing that can separate you from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. |
| 6. - - - The Primary aspect of God’s nature, his primary attribute, is Love. | John 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. 2 Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. |
The Christian does best who obeys Christ's direction, "Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming." It is best to have oil in your lamp, as did the wise virgins. | P - - Perseverance of the Saints means that all those who are truly saved will certainly be brought to heaven and to glorification and will never be lost | Once Saved; always Saved! There is nothing that can separate you from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. |
| FreeChoice Position. | Scripture | Implication | Calvinist Objection | Calvinist Implication |
| A. - - - The Primary aspect of God’s nature, his primary attribute, is Love. | 1 John 4:16 God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. Rom 5:8 God commendeth his LOVE toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Philippians 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant…he humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. |
All theology must understand the centrality of Love in the nature of God such that "God so loved the world that He gave His ONLY begotten Son, so that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." | G…Calvinists believe that God’s primary motive is the protection of His own GLORY and sovereignty, thus His primary attribute is Power. | All theology must understand the prerogatives and centrality of God’s sovereignty and power.. |
| 1. - - God elects only on the basis of foreseen faith and condemns only on the basis of resistance to grace. | John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined Joshua 24:15 Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve...But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord ." Revelation 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. |
People go to heaven or hell based on their own choices for or against Christ. God foreknew their choice. | U - - Unconditional Election means that God has elected for His own glory, in accordance with His own will and without regard for the merit of those elected, some for salvation and some to be left in their sins. | God chooses whether or not any individual will be saved. He chooses based on his own reasons which he has not revealed. |
| 2. - - Christ provided a universal opportunity by dying for all men and for every man such that ALL those who turn to him as true repentant believers are saved. | 1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. Acts 17:25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. |
The opportunity for Salvation is available to everyone. Christ's sacrifice is sufficient to cover all sin. Everyone is allowed to come to Christ. | L - - Limited Atonement means that Christ died specifically and only for the sins of those who would ever truly believe in Him.. | Christ's sacrifice was intended only for those who were chosen ahead of time for salvation. Everyone is not allowed to come to Christ. |
| 3. - - - In accordance with the foreplanning of God, man was created with the ability to resist Divine Grace | Acts 7:50 Has not my hand made all these things?'[1] 51"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! 52Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him-- Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. |
In the same way humanity has been endowed with the capacity to say "yes" to God, it has also been endowed with the capacity to resist, to say "no," to God's offer of the gospel. | I - - Irresistible Grace means that the elect are incapable of resisting the Holy Spirit's inward call to repentance and salvation | Those God chose for salvation are unable to say "no" to salvation due to God's overpowering them with his attractiveness. (Neither are the non-chosen able to say "yes." God never attempts to attract them.) |
| FreeChoice Position. | Scripture | Implication | Calvinist Objection | Calvinist Implication |
| 4. - - - Pre-regenerate Man is so depraved that foreplanned divine intervention and prevenient divine grace are necessary to bring about faith or any good deed. | John 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[1] it.... . 9The true light that gives light to EVERY man was coming into the world.[2] Romans 2:14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their CONSCIENCES also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) |
The Spirit of Christ, based on the pure grace of God, gives enough light to every human, speaks sufficiently to each human heart, despite its inherent sinfulness, such that each person is confronted with a real, complete choice for or against God. . | T - - Total Depravity means that Natural Man is totally sinful and does not ever WANT in his own spirit to know Christ | Humanity does not have an effective conscience, nor does any man have, before regeneration, any internal capability to receive any good message from God. There is no residue of the image of God remaining in pre-regeneration man. |
| 5. - - - It is not certain from the bible that all who are truly regenerate will necessarily persevere in the faith. | John 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. 2 Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. |
The Christian does best who obeys Christ's direction, "Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming." It is best to have oil in your lamp, as did the wise virgins. Additionally, the Lord who demands holiness of us will out of his love empower us to follow after that holiness without which no one will see God. | P - - Perseverance of the Saints means that all those who are preselected for salvation will certainly be brought to heaven and to glorification and will never be lost | Once Saved; always Saved! There is nothing that can separate you from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. |
9:18 So then, God has mercy on whom he chooses to have mercy, and he hardens whom he chooses to harden.
9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who has ever resisted his will?"
9:20 But who indeed are you-a mere human being-to talk back to God? Does what is molded say to the molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
9:21 Has the potter no right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special use and another for ordinary use?
9:22 But what if God, willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath prepared for destruction?
9:23 And what if he is willing to make known the wealth of his glory on the objects of mercy that he has prepared beforehand for glory-
9:24 even us, whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
It seems to me that for the Arminian position to hold, verse 18 would have to read "So then, God has mercy on those who choose to have mercy given them, and He hardens those who choose to be hardened."
I think they read it I will have Mercy on those who chose me to have mercy on them... just a slight varience:>)
This says that God chooses the nation Israel over Edom in the past (Jacob over Esau) and that in the present he has chosen the Gentiles OVER Israel.....he will have mercy on whom he will have mercy.
(Wiley, Culberton) In contrast to the Calvinist view...Arminianism holds that predestination is the gracious purpose of God to save all mankind from utter ruin. It is not an arbitrary, indiscriminate act of God intended to secure the salvation of so many and no more. It includes provisionally all men in its scope, and is conditioned solely on faith in Jesus Christ. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16). Election differs from predestination in this, that election implies a choice, whereas predestination does not. In Ephesians 1:4,5,11-13, it is said that God hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, THAT WE SHOULD BE HOLY AND WITHOUT BLAME BEFORE HIM IN LOVE. this is election. The gracious plan by which this is to be accomplished is predestination, having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. thus predestination is God's general and gracious plan of saving men, by adopting them as children through Christ; election pertains to the chosen ones who are holy and blameless before Him in love. the proofs of election are not in the secret counsels of God, but in the visible fruits of holiness. the church is both predestinated and elected, the former referring to the plan of redemption as manifested in the universal call; the latter to the elect or chosen ones who have accepted the offers of mercy. The elect are chosen, not by absolute decree, but by acceptance of the conditions of the call. And as the character of the elect consists of holiness and blamelessness before Him in love, so election is by those means which make men righteous and holy. Hence our Lord says, I have chose you OUT OF the world. (John 15:19). St Paul explains it by saying, God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation, THOROUGH SANCTIFICATION OF THE SPIRIT AND BELIEF OF THE TRUTH (2 Thess 2:13) St Peter's teaching is to the same effect, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, THROUGH SANCTIFICATION OF THE SPIRIT unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ (I Peter 1:2)
Armininian theology has generally treated the subject of election under the threefold aspect. FIRST, the election of individuals to perform some particular service. Thus Moses was chosen to lead Israel out of Egypt and Aaron to be the priest of the sanctuary. Cyrus was elected to aid in rebuilding the temple, Christ chose the twelve as apostles, and St Paul was chosen as the apostle of the Gentiles. These offices were ordained to assist others, and not to exclude them from saving grace. SECOND, the election of nations or other bodies of men to special religious privileges. Thus Israel was chosen as God's first representative of the visible Church on earth. THIRD, the election of particular individuals to be the children of God and heirs of eternal life. This Arminianism always and rightly regards as conditional upon faith in Christ, and as including ALL who believe.
I posted this over on the Predestination thread, but I would like your answer as a thoughtful Calvinist [I will omit the comment on the apparent oxymoron :-)].
Having just finished several hours of research and work in writing #963 above, I am more than a little frustrated with the (apparently) purposeful twisting of Scripture and even human reason by a Mormon in attacking the Bible. So, it is hard to credit me right now with 'sympathy' for the Mormon cause (which will be the undoubted response from the knee-jerk Calvinist defenders here to this post).Yet WM (who as we all know is an extraordinarily thoughtful Mormon) has taken aim at precisely the thought that has been troubling me for the last several days: What motivates the assembled Calvinist throng to the fever-pitch of mean-spirited argumentation here day after day? That is, what is its aim? What can it possibly accomplish (from their point of view)?
Is it to promote a Christ-like life in other believers? Clearly (as WM's thoughtful rhetorical question so clearly evidences), it is not. There is no discussion of what constitutes a Christ-like life. None. [Although the early Calvinists (such as Edwards) whom the Calvinist protagonists here purport to revere, spent much time and effort on precisely that.]
Moreover, there is no discussion whatever on the role of the Holy Spirit in impelling such a Christ-like life (which was the common ground shared so fully by Wesley and Whitefield). There is seemingly no interest whatever in that topic.
Is it to encourage others to gain salvation? Clearly not. For the Calvinist world view precludes any role for man in that process. It has been (by their lights) foreordained, so it would be a waste of time urging others to accept Christ. And to the credit of (at least) their consistency, they do not do so. For reasons of their theology, they have no interest in pointing others to Christ.
Well, then, why spit and fight and denigrate others whose "sin" in their eyes is to believe that they must make some affirmative decision to accept Christ and believe in Him and upon the New Birth seek after Him and His direction in all of life's decisions?
All I can posit is that it is somehow thought necessary to be proven "right". There seems to be an over-arching concern with bending our reason to their theological judgment. But I ask "why"? What sense does that make from their theological position?
What sense does it make for them to get so mad and rhetorically jump up and down about the structure of our theological formulations versus theirs? It would seem that, if they believed their formulations, they should have even more equanimity than we about whether we accept the others' formulations. After all, they understand that it makes no difference whatever in the 'final outcome' while we are concerned that we effectively communicate to others what we understand to be the supremely critical decision of life.
So, why do the assembled Calvinists not just ignore (what from their standpoint is viewed as) our theological failings? The only hypothesis I can devise is that they feel they will obtain some 'rewards' for "setting our formulations 'right'" (just before we go to Hell).
So, tell me. [No need to shout or hurl invective, etc.] From your eternal standpoint (or ours) what possible difference does it make whether we agree with you or not?"
Well, that's the question. What purpose is served, from the Calvinist theological perspective, by the continued agressive pursuit of the bending of our poor, over-worked Arminian wills?
So God selects those that select Him first ??Once they believe he is god then He becomes God and selects them.Sounds like a "plan" just not a scripitual one:>)))
Psa 65:4 Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee, that] he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, [even] of thy holy temple.
Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Mark 13:20; And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
He is sure a lucky God to have such clever , smart men select and elect Him
I like your pretty-colored fonts but I sure wish you could find a modern translation. I am not smart enough to interpret Elizabethan English built on a medieval Byzantine text. Must be my misspent youth.
Oh, and the reasoning you use to reach your conclusion makes me wonder if you also write about scroll saw work under the pseudonym "Kerry Shirts"?
Maybe you missed the second blessing :>))
Oh, and the reasoning you use to reach your conclusion makes me wonder if you also write about scroll saw work under the pseudonym "Kerry Shirts"?
Naw I only do his laundry..
You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free....
So perhaps you will tell me why the Arminians need to toss mud at Calvin to make their doctrine look true??:>))
I am not Steve..but we know the same God :>)) *grin*
Well, it is a Plan, and very much scriptural.
Psa 65:4 Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee, that] he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, [even] of thy holy temple.
Same Psa. O thou that hearest prayer unto thee shall all flesh come.
Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
That is the unconditional election of Israel as the Priest nation. No one denies unconditional election for particular activities. Christ was unconditionally elected to the the Christ (Isa.42) and Cyrus (Isa.45)
Mark 13:20; And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days
Yes, the elect in this case are the Jews who are part of the Elect nation of Israel.(see Matt.24:24)
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
That is correct, but you leave out verse 12 but as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,even to them that believe on his name
Now, verse 13 is just saying what Eph.2:8-9 is saying that the Plan is of grace, not of works.
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Amen, again context! The previous verse states They said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Then the Lord answers that there is only one work you can do that God will accept and that is a nonwork (Rom.4:4-5)believe! This was the stumbling block for the Jews that it was faith that saved not works (the Law)(Rom.9:31-32), that it was only faith that would please God (Heb.11:6)
Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Amen! Christ also went on to say, And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of everyone which seeth the Son and believeth on him, may have everlasting life and I will raise him up on the last day (vs.40) The Pharisses were seeing the Lord but not believing. They were not doing the Father's will and therefore were not called
He is sure a lucky God to have such clever , smart men select and elect Him
One, you are the one claiming to be specially elected by God while most everyone else has been rejected. What makes you so special?
Two, what we are is fortunate to have is a Loving God who wants all men to be saved (1Tim.2:4, 4:10, Jn.12:32, 3:16, Rom.10:13, Ezx.33:11, Jn.3:17-21 and ofcourse 2Pet.3:9)
Not willing that any should perish. So wonderful is his love towards mankind, that he would have them all to be saved, and is of his own self prepared to bestow salvation on the lost...(Calvin)
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