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To: winstonchurchill
" ...So, Adam had no free will, is that true?"

He had as much free will as Judas and the Romans had.

You con't... "If so, that strikes me as circuitous. The Calvinist definition of sin (which in turn 'justifies' pre-selected damanation (whether or not by passed-over theory)) is based on imputation from the sin of Adam. So, in Calvinist theory, what was Adam's sin to impute to regard him as fallen and therefore justify being 'reprobated', all before he sinned?"

Why do you keep bringing Calvin's name up? This thread is about Luther who believed in double predestination.

And you keep asking questions that were answered in the paper about Luther's teachings that I posted above. Didn't you read it? If so, please re-read it and see if you can find your answer in what Luther taught.

14 posted on 06/14/2002 3:50:55 PM PDT by Matchett-PI
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To: Matchett-PI
My comments: "If so, that strikes me as circuitous. The Calvinist definition of sin (which in turn 'justifies' pre-selected damanation (whether or not by passed-over theory)) is based on imputation from the sin of Adam. So, in Calvinist theory, what was Adam's sin to impute to regard him as fallen and therefore justify being 'reprobated', all before he sinned?"

Your comment: Why do you keep bringing Calvin's name up? This thread is about Luther who believed in double predestination. And you keep asking questions that were answered in the paper about Luther's teachings that I posted above. Didn't you read it? If so, please re-read it and see if you can find your answer in what Luther taught.

I see. There is no answer. As to the Luther/Calvin distinction, it is a distinction without a difference -- as your own article argues. Theological determinisim has, for better or worse, come to be known as "Calvinism". But you are free to call it "Lutherism" if you wish.

The point is, when confronted with Adam, the construct makers had a big problem. They couldn't say Adam had a free will without trying (unsuccessfully) to explain why God would give one man a free will and not all. But they couldn't say he was predestined for sin without God being the author of sin and evil -- and, of course, punishing him for the imputed sin he hadn't yet committed.

So, the answer: As usual when the construct makers aren't sure, punt it. Just as you did. Congratulations. You now qualify for your master's degree in Calvinist deception.

15 posted on 06/14/2002 4:03:23 PM PDT by winstonchurchill
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To: Matchett-PI; winstonchurchill
And you keep asking questions that were answered in the paper about Luther's teachings that I posted above. Didn't you read it? If so, please re-read it and see if you can find your answer in what Luther taught.

It is very difficult to believe that Calvinists are not aware of their obfuscations. You never answered the questions posted by winstonchurchill, then demand that he find the answers in the non-answers you posted.

Please understand that there are two who are aware of your dissimulation, and you are one of them. The other is not I.

Hank

21 posted on 06/14/2002 8:00:35 PM PDT by Hank Kerchief
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