Another Diocesan Priest Rejects Novus Ordo

The Remnant ^ | 1/31/05 | Thomas A. Droleskey, Ph.D.

[sinkspur]

In this order of speculative ideas, Catholics, like all other citizens, are free to prefer one form of government to another precisely because no one of these social forms is, in itself, opposed to the principles of sound reason nor to the maxims of Christian doctrine.

So, Leo XIII, in the latter half of the 19th century, said that American Catholics are free to favor a Democratic Republic?

Imagine that!!

[gbcdoj]

Since you slander me with the title "modernist", either demonstrate the truth of the charge from my writings here or retract. I absolutely deny that I accept any of the propositions condemned in Lamentabili Sane or the system of modernism described in Pascendi.

And that was a judgment. See Fr. Fenton's 1956 study on the passage here.

[pascendi]

"Since you slander me with the title "modernist", either demonstrate the truth of the charge from my writings here or retract."

Quit the whining. I've been watching you here for so long endlessly trying to reconcile all this crap with what's gone before it, while you don't lift a flippin' finger to assist an honest defense of Holy Mother Church where it really counts.

Slander? Ha. You want to come in from that angle, I'll just beat it down and into an oblivion.

"I absolutely deny that I accept any of the propositions condemned in Lamentabili Sane or the system of modernism described in Pascendi."

That's because you hang out on the outskirts hiding behind quotes, remaining two-faced and unwilling to commit yourself to any in-depth commentary or discussion.

Come out on an open field and you're toast.

[gbcdoj]

So, Leo XIII, in the latter half of the 19th century, said that American Catholics are free to favor a Democratic Republic?

In the same Encyclical, Leo said "though these advantages cannot justify the false principle of separation nor authorize its defence, they nevertheless render worthy of toleration a situation which, practically, might be worse."

And in Testem Benevolentiae, he wrote:

From the foregoing it is manifest, beloved son, that we are not able to give approval to those views which, in their collective sense, are called by some "Americanism." But if by this name are to be understood certain endowments of mind which belong to the American people, just as other characteristics belong to various other nations, and if, moreover, by it is designated your political condition and the laws and customs by which you are governed, there is no reason to take exception to the name.

The union of Church and State is an ideal. Obviously this is impossible in the case of a democratic republic where the majority of citizens are not Catholic. What must be affirmed, according to Catholic doctrine, is that union is the ideal, even if circumstances combine to make that union impossible in the present.

[pascendi]

"But if by this name are to be understood certain endowments of mind which belong to the American people, just as other characteristics belong to various other nations, and if, moreover, by it is designated your political condition and the laws and customs by which you are governed, there is no reason to take exception to the name."

If you don't mind, I'd like to hear your private interpretation of this text.

[pascendi]

"So, Leo XIII, in the latter half of the 19th century, said that American Catholics are free to favor a Democratic Republic?"

That's not what it said.

[sinkspur]

Cord's fine. Still nothing about monarchism in your post, however.

[sinkspur]

That's not what it said.

Of course not. It's what Pope Leo XIII said.

You ignore Popes when they pronounce on the legitimacy of democratic republics just like you ignore them when they prounounce on the baptism of desire.

You cafeteria catholic, you!

[pascendi]

"It's what Pope Leo XIII said."

That's not what he said.

[sinkspur]

Man, this just burns your Novus Ordo rear ends, doesn't it?

Doesn't burn me. I didn't know the man. Maybe the diocese is better off without him, especially if he's of a schismatic mindset.

[sinkspur]

That's exactly what he said, that monarchism and democratic republics are equal forms of government as far as the Church is concerned.

[pascendi]

"You ignore Popes when they pronounce on the legitimacy of democratic republics..."

No pronouncement has been made.

"...just like you ignore them when they prounounce on the baptism of desire."

No pronouncement has been made.

Private interpretations on your part? Those have been made.

You go whip out Testem Benevolentiae Nostrae and read for yourself. For the first time, no doubt.

See for yourself if it don't wipe your Americanist be-hind.

Cafeteria quoters...

[sinkspur]

From the foregoing it is manifest, beloved son, that we are not able to give approval to those views which, in their collective sense, are called by some "Americanism." But if by this name are to be understood certain endowments of mind which belong to the American people, just as other characteristics belong to various other nations, and if, moreover, by it is designated your political condition and the laws and customs by which you are governed, there is no reason to take exception to the name.

[royalcello]

Vote Monarchist. Make your last vote count.

I love it! :)

[sinkspur]

You don't even read what you post. Leo XIII in NO WAY condemns the form of government known as democratic republicanism.

[pascendi]

Sinkspur's private interpretation:

"Dood. eh heh. He just, like, said democracy was alright. eh heh."

[gbcdoj]

whining

According to traditional doctrine, one has a right to his good reputation. Why don't you explain what principles of modernism I hold?

That's because you hang out on the outskirts hiding behind quotes, remaining two-faced and unwilling to commit yourself to any in-depth commentary or discussion.

Okay, what do you want to discuss about my personal theological views?

[thor76]

.......neither is an Encyclical - by its very existance - defined dogma/donctrine, unless defintively stated so.

You are playing at word games here!

[sinkspur]

Read Leo's statement. Nowhere in it does he condemn democratic republicanism.

BTW, what are you doing here if the US form of government gets under your hide?

Venezuela's semi-socialist; you'd fit right in.