Posted on 06/19/2005 9:33:26 PM PDT by Lady In Blue
Pope set to return to traditional liturgy:-
VATICAN CITY | June 19, 2005 5:11:27 AM IST
Pope Benedict XVI wants to restore the traditional ceremonial Mass in St. Peter's Basilica, with Latin instead of the vernacular and Gregorian chants.
Vatican expert Sandro Magister reported in his weekly newsletter Saturday that the pope is expected to replace Archbishop Pietro Marini, his predecessor Pope John Paul II's master of liturgical ceremonies.
Whoever follows Marini will have orders to restore the traditional style and choreography of papal ceremonies in St. Peter's.
Out will go the international Masses so dear to Pope John Paul II's heart, with such innovations as Latin American and African rhythms and even dancing, multi-lingual readings and children in national costumes bringing gifts to the altar.
Pope Benedict wants to return to the Sistine Chapel choirs singing Gregorian chant and the church music of such composers as Claudio Monteverdi from the 17th century. He also wants to revive the Latin Mass.
Archbishop Marini always planned the ceremonies with television in mind, Magister said, and that emphasis will remain. A decade ago the Vatican set up a system for transmitting papal ceremonies world wide via multiple satellites.
(UPI)
"Quibbling for "Salutation" over "hail" seems silly....Call it a poetic lisence, helpful for meter, that is 100% proper...As for "gracious" and "poor" being added: Yes, they were. So what? They help the poetry, and they are correct."
All my quibbles with the Salve Regina are matters of taste. IMO, the thing is very poorly done.
"Uniquitous"? Is this your own? A port-manteau combination of "ubiquitous" and "iniquitous"? If so, it certainly sums up OCP publications! ;-)
"I just doubt a return to the Latin Mass will cure all our ills."
Nothing every cures all our ills, but it's still worth doing.
Law was apparently cleaning up the problem -- quietly, not fast enough, but he inherited a huge problem. Check the MA AG's report: the number of reported cases started a clear decline after 1984, when Law took over. The AG -- reluctantly -- reported no ongoing problem at the time of the 2000 report. (The numbers in the report are broken down by decade, not year -- but combining the 40s and 50s and with a break at 1984; by year would have been better.)
That's because we don't say the Apostles' Creed at Mass; we say the Nicene Creed, which doesn't include that phrase. ;-)
"That's because we don't say the Apostles' Creed at Mass; we say the Nicene Creed, which doesn't include that phrase. ;-)"
Two things: the Apostles' Creed can supposedly be substituted for the Nicene at "children's masses," and I know a parish that regularly does it at its only English Mass of the week. I think the second case is an abuse, though.
Our Church is preserved in Doctrinal purity by persons - the persons of the Blessed Trinity, not the language of a particular Liturgy. Of course, it should go without saying that each and every Liturgy ought be good, true, and beautiful, and, with authentic translations into the vernacular, the Pauline Rite Liturgy is good, true, and beautiful.
As far as everyone everywhere worshiping God in the same tongue, the polemics on that, imo, tend to distract us from the action of Jesus in the Liturgy; Jesus as both priest and victim offering himslef to God on our behalf as an offering of propitiation. That action is, imo, best understood in our native tongue. And Tradition, I think, can be cited to support this
Pope Alexander VII (1665 - 1667)
Sacred Congregation De Propaganda FIDE "Instruction to the Vicars Apostolic of Tonkin and Cochinchina"
If, in carrying out the orders of the S. Congregation, you meet or forsee difficulties to the extent that these orders will not be accepted without revolt, avoid at all costs imposing them on the persons against their will. Do not urge them by force or the fear of censures and avoid sowing the seed of division which would result from the disobedience of some, for you would thus alienate them and arouse strong passions...Do not in any way atempt, and do not on any pretext persuade those people to change their rites, habits and customs, unless they are openly opposed to religion and good morals. For what could be more absurd than to bring France, Spain, Italy or any other European country over to China? It is not your country but the faith you must bring, that faith which does not reject or belitle the rites or customs of any nations as long as those rites are not evil, but rather desires that they be preserved in their integrity and fostered...Admire and praise whatever merits praise. As regards what is not praiseworthy, while it must not be extolled as is done by flaterers, you will be prudent enough not to pass judgement upon it or, in any case, not to condemn it rashly or exaggeratedly. As for what is evil, it should be dismissed by a nod or the head or by silence rather than by words, without losing the occasions, when souls have become disposed to receive the truth, to uproot it imperceptibly.
Now I am confused. If you never believed in God, who did you believe you were praying to?
I am a Catholic of the post-Vatican II era. I have never believed the Lord holds it against me because I speak to him in English. Nor do I accept my prayers will carry more weight if they are in Latin.
It won't. But, what it will do is put the worship aspect of Mass in focus and put the emphasis back on Christ and the Sacrifice of the Mass. That may not seen all that important in a world where administrative problems are pressing and grab headlines, but it's actually vital.
One of the myriad of problems right now (which has manifested in the form of things like lack of celebacy in the clergy) is a lack of faith or a shallowness of faith that has been, not caused, but helped along by shallow worship. The touchy-feely stuff is plain and simply shallow. If the major administrative problems are going to be fixed, the faith of the members of the church must be fixed first. Making Mass a Godly experience is a start. There is nothing like hearing Gregorian Chant a cappella by a seminarian choir to make one want to glimpse Heaven. That is what we are supposed to see in Mass and in the modern way the NO is said, most of the time, it's just not there.
Latin is not a panecea, but it does solve the problem of translation. I have a bunch of old missals and the ones from the 70's even have language that is much less watered down than what we hear today. Particularly in the lectionary. The readings should probably stay in the vernacular, for obvious reasons, but there is no reason why at least the Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus Dei can't be in Latin. The Canon would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath.
I prefer this somewhat free poetic translation with its rhyming meter:
Soul of Christ, be my sanctification
Body of Christ, be my salvation
Blood of Christ, fill all my veins
Water of Christ's side, wash out my stains
Passion of Christ, my strength be
O good Jesus, listen to me
In your wounds I fain would hide
Ne'er to be parted from your side
Guard me should the Foe assail me
Call me when my life shall fail me
Bid me come to Thee above
With Thy Saints to sing Thy Love
World without end. Amen.
Dear rwfromkansas,
"Well, certainly true, unfortunately. Though he was a blasphemous little heretic, he didn't deserve to die for it."
1. Whether he did or not, let's not forget at whose hands he died.
2. I'm not sure that death wasn't deserved.
I remember years ago when I took coursework on Islam, I learned that Mohammed likely derived his religion from the heretical teachings of exiled Catholic priests. These had been exiled for their various Christological heresies, mostly denying the divinity of Jesus, and thus, the Trinitarian nature of God. Thus - Islam. These persons had been exiled rather than executed.
Would Islam have come into being if they had been treated differently? I don't know. But the last 1400 years cause me to reflect on the alternatives.
sitetest
Dsc, I don't think you're understanding where I'm coming from. I would be wholly in favor of suppressing the ICEL-butchered Novus Ordo entirely, and leaving the church in the U.S. with the Latin 1962 Missal and the Anglican Use only. I go to a Latin Mass every week. So no argument about the usefulness, and appropriateness of Latin--all I am saying is that rw's point about it not being *essential* is correct. He thinks we are *insisting* that a Mass has to be in Latin for it to be valid/spiritually beneficial, and I want to make it clear to him and every one else that that is *not at all* reflective of Catholic thinking.
I'm on the same page as you--I just don't like using sloppy reasons to get there, especially ones that scandalize well-meaning Protestant folks.
That's most unfortunate, and hopefully will be corrected because it's a barbaric translation. I just got the DVD for the liturgy from Our Lady of the Atonement, and the version on there has "and with thy spirit".
I'm just trying to insist that my fellow traditionalists *understand what they are arguing*. If Latin is made a non-negotiable "essential" of the faith that is a widely imprudent and short-sighted policy.
Bernard LAW did get fired.
You aparently do not understand the vast disparity of prestige between the status of an American Metropolitan Archbishop -- with staff and budget and consequent power commensurate -- and that of Archpriest of a Roman basilica. It's more honor than the man deserves (or needs), but still he's little more than the pastor of a parish church. He has been stripped of his finest feathers, and knows it.
What's the point of making people read along when you can give them God's word directly in a language they understand. You folks have a strange need to do something nonsensical.
Hail in archaic English means Salvation, Saves, etc. "Hail" comes from the German "Heil". "Heaven" in German is "Heilland", while "Holy" is "Heilige", and "Salvation" is "Heil", as is "Being Saved".
"Salve Regina" then means essentially "Save us O Queen" or "O Queen you are our Salvation". Anyone who can save is of course holy, since salvation is holiness. The use of "Hail" instead of "Salvation" keeps the translation from becoming tenditious. "Hail holy Queen" is entirely appropriate.
Incidentally, a proper understanding of the first line of the Salve Regina also exposes the true anti-Christ import of the Nazi phrases "Heil Hitler" and "Sieg Heil".
Well, you're right, because He doesn't, and they won't. But the Catholic faith requires us to acknowledge the utility and appropriateness both of an ancient liturgical language, *as well as* the vernacular. Both are part of our long tradition, and both must be maintained.
The Council of Trent infallibly decreed:
If anyone says...the mass ought to be celebrated in the vernacular tongue only...let him be anathema.
I have a tendency to deliberately invent my own words, but that was a product of my subconscious mind, at best. :^D
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