The Papacy and Islam

Bearean Beacon ^ | Richard Bennett and Robert J. Nicholson

[kawaii]

Then show the unbroken church protected by the Holy Spirit Christ promised to send, which Scripture records arriving on Pentecost, from 33 AD to present.

Show the unbroken line of Christians practicing waiting to batpise until adulthood, show the ones reading scriptures, show the ones who felt the eucharist was just symbolic and would say so [to avoid persecution!], show the ones who justified wars as ‘Christian’.

[adiaireton8]

so where were they? were they the vandal hordes? there is no archeological evidence for such Christians. the folks who beleived in the interim even remotely as protestants do fall into two groups, heathens who rejected Christianity in their inherit barbarity, and gnostics who reject key princibles of Christianity (for instance by calling the old testament God evil and suggesting Christ revealed a different God entirely.).

That is actually a very good point. The Protestant will reply with speculation that there were always such Christians even within Catholicism and Orthodoxy, those who believed simply that Christ died for their sins and trusted in Christ to save them.

-A8

[kawaii]

I’m betting that point was pretty clear when rather than bowing down to worship Christ[God!] they asked Pilate to nail him to a tree...

[kawaii]

there are sporadic heretics that held such views (but also held views most protestants would strongly disagree with) but there is nothing like an unbroken group of them.

the protestant view necessitates several hundred years of no Christians on earth.

[adiaireton8]

What a bizaar comment.

What is amazing to me is that I know exactly why you can say that, and yet I understand exactly why kawaii said what he said. I have been in both paradigms myself. But it is amazing to watch the conversation across the two paradigms, and see how hard it is for each side to understand the other.

-A8

[Alamo-Girl]

Whoa, kawaii.

I eschew all of the doctrines and traditions of men across the board. I am neither for nor against any of them.

I am pro-God. A Christian, plain and simple.

I believe God. I trust Him. After all, if I cannot trust God then who can I trust?

[kawaii]

I’m not talking about the traditions of men I’m talking about the Traditions God established from Old Testament to present.

The priesthood he created with Aaron.

The place for worship he demaded.

The eucharist he taught the church. One which he clearly gave authority, and underscored the Holy Spirit would come to prevent from falling astray.

[kawaii]

It’s not that I don’t know or get the protestant view, it’s that I reject it on the basis of faith, and I’m not going to deny that faith by approaching the truth as though it were a possibility.

[adiaireton8]

To be a Christian requires trusting those whom Christ appointed to be His Apostles. And the Apostles tell us that Christ will never leave the Church, and that the gates of hell will not prevail over the Church, and that the Holy Spirit will guide the Church into all truth. But lone-ranger individualist Christians of our present time, by their rejection of the historical Church in favor of a Bible+Me approach, are distrusting the Apostles and the promises of Christ (mentioned above) to the Church. They are saying, by their approach to Christianity, that Christ abandoned the Church and let it fall into darkness and deception for centuries, and let the gates of hell prevail over it.

-A8

[GoLightly]

If one aledges there is not one unbroken church since 33 AD then one is aledging that God gave up and never sent the Holy Spirit. Further rather than save his church he caused division.

Since we don't allege what you're saying we do, you're arguing against a straw-man.

1Cr 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

All of the churches? I thought there was only one? God is not the author of confusion, I agree. Satan is it's author. In citing this passage, it almost sounds like you're trying to tell me that the Christian world was peaceful until the fateful rise of Protestantism. Kinda strange that you skipped over verses 34 & 35, the parts saying that women should be silent in church & should ask their husbands at home.

1Cr 14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

We don't make that claim, least most of us don't.

1Cr 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Considering everything that came before this, in this chapter, I'm having a difficult time seeing the point you're trying to make by including this verse.

[kawaii]

that or their suggesting that what God says is so weak that a bunch of men prevailed over his will...

[kawaii]

Since we don't allege what you're saying we do, you're arguing against a straw-man.

Then show me the unbroken Church! Christ promised to maintain the church and NEVER leave it on its own. He promised that even those who hadn't know his words would know them through the Holy Spirit. He didn't foot note this with well it might take 1500 years.

Since the protestant wolves decended on the sheep, they've been divided 20,000 ways. Certainly this alone proves that protestantism is not Christ doing but that of someone or thing bent on dividing Christians, not bringing the truth to their lips.

[kawaii]

We don't make that claim, least most of us don't.

Protestants aledge it came unto Calvin, or Luther alone...

[kawaii]

All of the churches? I thought there was only one? God is not the author of confusion, I agree. Satan is it's author. In citing this passage, it almost sounds like you're trying to tell me that the Christian world was peaceful until the fateful rise of Protestantism. Kinda strange that you skipped over verses 34 & 35, the parts saying that women should be silent in church & should ask their husbands at home.

It's pretty obvious the prhase refers to parishes or communities, since there were not 20,000 denominations of Christians in St Pauls time. There was one Holy Apostolic Church. Someone who authored the confusion of 20,000 denominations, would have to be someone other than God.

[GoLightly]

One might want to ponder archaeological evidence before one assumes they've been changes.

Saying that is akin to saying the Holy Spirit's main concern is buildings.

[kawaii]

Most of the 20,000 + protestant denominations blatently ignore the commandments of God St Paul relates in 1 Corinthians.

[kawaii]

I’m not talking about buildings, i’m talking about how every find of communities of Christians practiced as do the Orthodox, and those that didn’t belonged to clearly defined heresies like gnostism. THERE WERE NEVER CHRISTIANS WHO PRACTICED AND BELEIVED AS PROTESTANTS DO UNTIL THE 14TH CENTURY.

[Alex Murphy]

....there were no actual Christians for 1500 years but there was some sort of intangible church sans actual people....

show the unbroken church protected by the Holy Spirit Christ promised to send, which Scripture records arriving on Pentecost, from 33 AD to present.

Show the unbroken line of Christians practicing waiting to baptize until adulthood, show the ones reading scriptures, show the ones who felt the eucharist was just symbolic and would say so [to avoid persecution!], show the ones who justified wars as ‘Christian’.

kawaii, I find your arguments growing more and more odd, especially since, in an earlier post, you claimed to have been raised Presbyterian, only converting to Russian Orthodoxy later in your life.

Where are you coming up with the idea that all (or even many) Protestants believe this stuff? I don't know of any Presbyterian denominations who believe or teach these ideas (but then again, I don't get out much, so it might just be me). I can think of a number of Campbellite groups that might, but you weren't raised in their churches, so that hardly counts. You're attempting to hang all Protestantism for beliefs that (should) run counter to your own religious upbringing. I would hope that you'd at least give credit where credit is due, re the Presbyterians.

[kawaii]

i claim to have been forced to attend a presbyterian parish. i was encouraged to ‘make up my own mind’ and ‘be baptised when i felt it was right’. meantime said presbyterian parish commited and continues to propagate foul heresies.

[kawaii]

I would hope that you'd at least give credit where credit is due, re the Presbyterians.

Well let's see they denied that one folks should confess their sins to eachother. They let a transvestie serve on the board of deacons, and his wife teach Sunday school, and called for Gay marriage.

Perhaps I'm not giving them enough credit indeed.