HS Lesbian Sues Over Locker Ban

NY Post ^ | 2002-12-18 | Reuters

[Lorenb420]

December 18, 2002 -- LOS ANGELES - A 15-year-old student who was banned from the girl's locker room at her school because she is a lesbian filed a federal civil-rights lawsuit yesterday in a case that tests the rights of gay students.

[JMP]

..........To me nothing is more cowardly and lacking in honor than ganging up on someone for kicks........
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You act as if that sort of thing happens every saturday night. The only instance that I recall was Mathew Sheppard.
I'm sure you would agree that the instance of spouses beating on each other is a far more common occurrance. Maybe you need to find another windmill.
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.........Five Jets fans beat up a Dophin's fan and that's assault............
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Actually thats nature's way of cleansing itself of Dolphin fans. Lighten up. Life's short.

[MadIvan]

They do. Parents speak through laws passed by legislatures in their jurisdiction. And in this jurisdiction, a law says you can't discriminate based on sexual preference. That law apparently governs even the operation of schools in this district. Is your zeal to make a point, why is this lost on you?

I see, so the parents can only have a say in how things are run at election time, in spite of the fact that most legislators run on a broad basket of issues most of the time. Apart from that, and perhaps writing the occasional letter to a legislator, they simply have to lie back and put ice on that when it comes to how their school is run on a day to day basis. Pardon me?

I'm hardly getting emotional, but I do seem to be the only one on this thread interested in what actually went on vice what could've happened but didn't.

You really don't want to concede the point that it might be a good idea to ask the parents and the students what they actually think and base any decisions on that. Secondly, if the child's right to participate in class is reinforced, then there is no discrimination.

So you believe laws or rules should be made based on everyone's personal level of comfort?

Sophistry. I am saying that the parents and children of this school should be consulted before this policy is decided. A consultation you seem to not want to occur.

Say your daughter told you she was uncomfortable changing around Jews. What possible recourse would you have?

Judaism is not a sexual preference. I was wondering when this tactic would be tried. Act Up uses it all the time.

Ivan

[jjm2111]

You act as if that sort of thing happens every saturday night. The only instance that I recall was Mathew Sheppard.

Naw, it's like when a homeonwner defends himself with a gun. It's buried in the back pages (if reported at all). The reason why Sheppard was blasted to the front was that:
A. He was murdered (as opposed to just beaten).
B. His tormenters were White rednecks.

Granted it's not THAT common, but I include thugs who rob and mug, such as 3 grown men robbing a woman, in that same "cowardly and without honor" category. Despicable.

Lighten up.

What was it that you said to me about being sexually and mentally deficient?

[JMP]

..........Exactly where in the Constitution does it say something to the effect that the right to remain comfortable at all times shall not be infringed?.........
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Exactly my point. The constitution does not guarantee the lesbian's right to bath with their chosen sexual prey. It's just too bad that the lesbian's feelings were hurt. Choices have consequences.
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........Well then, I honestly believe you don't know what it means to call someone a liberal...................
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Ah, I got it right the second time, a neocon. Means pretty much the same thing as liberal.

[Hemingway's Ghost]

I see, so the parents can only have a say in how things are run at election time, in spite of the fact that most legislators run on a broad basket of issues most of the time. Apart from that, and perhaps writing the occasional letter to a legislator, they simply have to lie back and put ice on that when it comes to how their school is run on a day to day basis. Pardon me?

There are several options available to parents who think their children's PUBLIC school policies are misguided. However, the issue here is something else entirely---that is, the school must act according to the law.

You really don't want to concede the point that it might be a good idea to ask the parents and the students what they actually think and base any decisions on that. Secondly, if the child's right to participate in class is reinforced, then there is no discrimination.

Sure, if you wanted to base policy on "feelings" vice law and justice it might be a good idea, but the school didn't even do that. It acted on its own, and in all probability, it broke the law.

Say your daughter told you she was uncomfortable changing around Jews. What possible recourse would you have?

Judaism is not a sexual preference. I was wondering when this tactic would be tried. Act Up uses it all the time.

Thanks for the momentous revelation that Judaism isn't a sexual preference. However, it most certainly is a religious preference, and as such, it has as much bearing on one's ability to attend a gym class with other children as one's sexual preference does. Unless, of course, you feel that the rational basis for determing law or justice is everyone's personal "comfort level" with the choices other people make, even when those choices have no bearing on other peoples' lives whatsoever.

That's not very conservative. There's a set of rules for everyone, or there's no set of rules for anyone---just a hobgob amalgamation of "feelings"-based bullsh*t for protected special interest groups, no matter what side of the political aisle they're on.

What possibly could be a rational solution to this "problem"? Separate changing areas for girls, boys, female homosexuals, and male homosexuals? Specific changing times for homosexual girls and straight girls in the girls' locker room, and specific changing times for homosexual boys and straight boys in the boys' locker room? How much time would such an allowance for everyone's sensitivity cut into actually doing something productive in a gym class? And what's next---what happens when the trans-sexuals and transvestites demand similar treatment? This useless stratification based on assauging everyone's tender feelings is identity politics at its worst---again, not very conservative, if you ask me.

[JMP]

.......I see you're looking at it from a different perspective than I am. You're looking at it as part of the overall cultural war........
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Dear good wimpycat. Yes I do look at this as a continuance of the culture war. Good people get hurt in all wars on all sides. Wars are also faught everyday in the smallest of skirmishes. The gains of the left could only occur because of the sense of fair play of the right. Your Christian morality becomes your Achilles Heel. (I believe that that is why it was prophecised that Christians would become persecuted.) I've got to fight the fight.

[Hemingway's Ghost]

Exactly my point. The constitution does not guarantee the lesbian's right to bath with their chosen sexual prey.

So the lesbian, in your mind, is some female Nimrod searching hither and yon for the tender, unsuspecting flesh of innocent female youths---preying upon the poor unsuspecting lasses like some fiendish sexual vampire? Get your mind out of the gutter, man. She's a girl who did nothing of the kind. She was going to gym class.

It's just too bad that the lesbian's feelings were hurt. Choices have consequences.

So choose lesbianism, forget gym. That's how it goes?

Ah, I got it right the second time, a neocon. Means pretty much the same thing as liberal.

Whatever, you authoritarian freak.

[JMP]

.........What was it that you said to me about being sexually and mentally deficient?.........
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jjm2111, Heck, that was after lunch. You haven't gotten over that yet? Actually I was responding to an implied accusation about being a closet gay.

[wimpycat]

The gains of the left could only occur because of the sense of fair play of the right. Your Christian morality becomes your Achilles Heel. (I believe that that is why it was prophecised that Christians would become persecuted.) I've got to fight the fight. I've got to fight the fight.

I'm coming more and more to the realization that I can really only answer for my own actions. What I'm saying is, I'm all for fighting the good fight, but the how is just as important as the why. We'll all have to answer for our own actions, not the actions of others. Do you think you will be rewarded more for standing up against immorality, or for how you treated people in the process?

[Ben Bolt]

So the bottom line here is this is another case of social engineering . I thought so . It reminds me of the case where the good Dr. athiest used his daughter to get a case in front of the 9th circuit .

What I want to know is how in the hell does this child even know that she is a lesbian , much less what a lesbian is ?

[JMP]

.........So the lesbian, in your mind, is some female Nimrod searching hither and yon for the tender, unsuspecting flesh of innocent female youths---preying upon the poor unsuspecting lasses like some fiendish sexual vampire?.........
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Darned if I know. Perhaps you can tell me what was on her mind. It does seem reasonable to assume that the lesbian had given her sexuality some thought in order to decide to pursue females. After all isn't that what lesbians consider when they ponder their choices?
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.........So choose lesbianism, forget gym. That's how it goes? .......
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There you go Ghost, you may have stumbled upon a solution to the lesbian's problem. No gym for professed lesbians. That works.
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.........Whatever, you authoritarian freak.....
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Does this mean I won the argument?

[jjm2111]

Actually I was responding to an implied accusation about being a closet gay.

From me? Are you sure you're responding to the right individual? This was my first post:
"I've always thought homo bashers were covering up something."
and it was not directed to you. If you believe it WAS directed at you either:
A. - you and your buddies decided to have a little "fun" after too much Nattie Light one evening;
-or-
B. - you are misconstruing my usage of the word 'bashing', which I believe I clarified earlier.

You haven't gotten over that yet?

Never really worried about it in the first place. I just found it ironic that you insulted ME and then told me to "lighten up".

[wimpycat]

I don't know if she knows if she's really a lesbian, or if she just wants to be rebellious, (even Anne Heche can't make up her mind) but having once been a teenage girl myself back in the 80's, I believe I can say with confidence that she at least knows what a lesbian is.

[Hemingway's Ghost]

Does this mean I won the argument?

No, it means you're an immature freak and you'll be treated as such by me from now on.

[JMP]

..........Do you think you will be rewarded more for standing up against immorality, or for how you treated people in the process?........
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I don't know wipycat. I do ponder the question all of the time. I believe that I treat people very well. As far as this forum goes (if that is what you are referring to) I understand that nothing is going to change as a result of spending some time here. Sometimes I think people on this forum over-estimate the importance of their statements here. I look at it as an enjoyable way to while away some time, nothing more. The real fight is out there where you get dirty. Doesn't everybody here participate for the fun of it?

[MadIvan]

There are several options available to parents who think their children's PUBLIC school policies are misguided. However, the issue here is something else entirely---that is, the school must act according to the law.

In so far as the girl has to be allowed to participate in gym class, I concede. Not in that she has any right to use the girls changing room any more than the boys do.

Sure, if you wanted to base policy on "feelings" vice law and justice it might be a good idea, but the school didn't even do that. It acted on its own, and in all probability, it broke the law.

According to you. The school only has an obligation to see that she gets to participate in the class, not that she uses a changing room.

Thanks for the momentous revelation that Judaism isn't a sexual preference

You brought in this tired old Act Up tactic. Sexual preferences are completely different from religions. Remember what I said at my very first post - the reason why men and women are segregated into different changing rooms has to do with it not turning into a peep show. A student being Jewish does not do this, unless you're some wacko anti-Semite.

That's not very conservative. There's a set of rules for everyone, or there's no set of rules for anyone---just a hobgob amalgamation of "feelings"-based bullsh*t for protected special interest groups, no matter what side of the political aisle they're on.

Quite touching that you defend the rules when you like them. I seem to recall that your grasp on drug laws in the United States was lex mala, lex nulla.

However, you can only say that the school "probably" or "possibly" broke the law, not that they did.

Secondly, you seem to not want to accept the societal norm about why changing rooms are segregated by sex.

Separate changing areas for girls, boys, female homosexuals, and male homosexuals...This useless stratification based on assauging everyone's tender feelings is identity politics at its worst---again, not very conservative, if you ask me.

No, it's not very conservative to steamroll over parents in favour of a special interest group, which you are so strenously defending.

Ivan

[JMP]

.........No, it means you're an immature freak and you'll be treated as such by me from now on........
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Usually name-calling is used when ones arguments become bankrupted. Actually, I was enjoying our interchanges. I didn't realize how easily you bruise.

[Hemingway's Ghost]

You brought in this tired old Act Up tactic. Sexual preferences are completely different from religions.

Both of which have absolutely no bearing on an individual's ability to attend gym class . . .

Remember what I said at my very first post - the reason why men and women are segregated into different changing rooms has to do with it not turning into a peep show. A student being Jewish does not do this, unless you're some wacko anti-Semite.

So then wouldn't a more perfect world assign locker rooms based upon sexual preference vice actual sexual equipment?

Quite touching that you defend the rules when you like them. I seem to recall that your grasp on drug laws in the United States was lex mala, lex nulla.

I'm working to overturn the laws criminalizing personal marijuana possession, yes.

However, you can only say that the school "probably" or "possibly" broke the law, not that they did.

A journalistic convention because this case hasn't been settled. Not unlike writing "alleged" or "allegedly" before everything.

Secondly, you seem to not want to accept the societal norm about why changing rooms are segregated by sex.

As I alluded to earlier, if this were truly the case, and society was really interested in preventing "peep shows" as you claim it is, changing rooms would be segregated by sexual preference, not by sex. There'd be a homo room and a hetero room. As a hetero man I'd have to change with other hetero men, but I wouldn't have to change with homosexual men. But whose loins is society trying to cool here? Could a lesbian woman change among heterosexual men? How about a straight woman among homosexual men? A straight guy among lesbian women? Or how about bisexuals---can they pick and choose depending on the day of the week? The permutations are endless.

No, it's not very conservative to steamroll over parents in favour of a special interest group, which you are so strenously defending.

No parents other than the lesbian girl's mother were consulted in this case. Why do you continue to exist they were---that they rose up and demanded their daughters be allowed to change for gym class in a lesbian-free environment?

[Hemingway's Ghost]

Usually name-calling is used when ones arguments become bankrupted. Actually, I was enjoying our interchanges. I didn't realize how easily you bruise.

Please. Don't flatter yourself, crusader.

[JMP]

..........Please. Don't flatter yourself, crusader.......
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I meant it. You were doing real good right up to the end, providing good counter arguments, then you just folded.