Posted on 11/06/2011 3:50:39 PM PST by Kevmo
A liter of gasoline per minute wouldn’t do it?
Note the lack of dispute over Rossi's history of making false claims.
"You do not seem to be aware of the fact that Rossi & Focardi submitted their findings for peer review & were denied publication because what they claim is ‘impossible’."
Indeed I'm not, because I haven't seen that mentioned in any of the articles about them. I've seen it mentioned that they got turned down for some patents for that reason, but not for peer reviewed publication.
So what journals did they submit to? Which ones turned them down? Where did you read that they sought publication in reputable journals?
"What a ridiculous example. The folks who would be buying Rossi’s product aren’t putting their lives on the line."
The point is that people who WERE putting their lives on the line were willing to pay $80,000 for a piece of useless crap because they *thought* it would work. Thus, the fact that people will buy a product is hardly evidence of the functionality of that product, because people can and do make poor choices even when lives are on the line.
I don’t think it has enough energy. Also, the observers would notice gasoline smell and heating it up to 100 degrees C would probably cause it to boil, right? And then you have to dispose of it at the same rate as it is coming in, but your position requires that this gasoline be consumed.
Kevmo: “You do not seem to be aware of the fact that Rossi & Focardi submitted their findings for peer review & were denied publication because what they claim is ‘impossible’.”
Vick: Indeed I’m not, because I haven’t seen that mentioned in any of the articles about them. I’ve seen it mentioned that they got turned down for some patents for that reason, but not for peer reviewed publication.
***Well, then pay closer attention. You might want to familiarize yourself with the reasons why Rossi started his “blog”.
So what journals did they submit to? Which ones turned them down? Where did you read that they sought publication in reputable journals?
***Go fetch for yourself.
Thus, the fact that people will buy a product is hardly evidence of the functionality of that product, because people can and do make poor choices even when lives are on the line.
***It is still a stupid example. Would you put your life on the line for unproven technology? Would you buy an ECat from Rossi, knowing he’s got a chequered past, without looking behind the curtain?
A liter per second for 2.5 hours doesn't have enough energy?
Also, the observers would notice gasoline smell and heating it up to 100 degrees C would probably cause it to boil, right?
Your claim was no known chemical reaction could produce as much energy as the ECAT did.
And then you have to dispose of it at the same rate as it is coming in
How much fluid, exactly, did Rossi pump into his device? How much fluid, exactly, came out?
but your position requires that this gasoline be consumed.
No, my position is that your claim was silly.
How much fluid, exactly, came out?
***The same amount that was pumped in.
I didn't think he measured it that precisely.
A liter per second for 2.5 hours doesn’t have enough energy?
***Let’s suppose it does. Where did he hide a Liter/s * 60s/min * 60min/hr * 2.5 hrs = 9000 liters?
Those are the kinds of things observers have been looking for in all of his demos. It’s not like the default setting is to trust this guy.
How to Prove that the Rossi/Focardi eCAT LENR is Real (or Fake)
LENR.QUMBO.com ^ | April 6, 2011 | Alan Fletcher
Posted on Sunday, June 05, 2011 7:52:15 PM by Kevmo
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2730401/posts
I didn’t think he measured it that precisely.
***Let’s say he’s off by a few milliliters. Where ya gonna get those 9000 missing liters of gasoline?
Then how come most of the articles you post rely on the phrase "Rossi says" multiple times?
Jed: All of these problems could all have been fixed at in a few hours, at minimal expense. The test could easily have been arranged in a way that would answer all skeptical objections, and convince any engineer that the effect is real. All of these problems were anticipated because they were present in previous tests. I and others advised Rossi to fix them in the weeks leading up to the test, but he ignored our advice.
Rossi conviently designs the test and data collection so NO ONE can really tell how much heat was released. AND Rossi doesn't issue detailed test reports that would open him up to a later fraud conviction. I guess he is learning from his previous five convictions ...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/backroom/2800058/posts?page=55#55
To: Moonman62
It appears that a relatively innocuous post responding to you was pulled.
This means I have nothing more to say to you about LENR. Bye.
55 posted on Sunday, October 30, 2011 4:41:07 PM by Kevmo (Caveat lurkor pro se ipso judicatis: Let the lurker decide for himself)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies | Report Abuse]
My standard response to NewinTexsas:
I gave up on having a reasonable discussion with you a while ago.
T4BTT
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2799528/posts?page=407#407
To: NewinTexsas
You’re going off the deep end. It’s time for me to be done with you altogether.
T4BTT
407 posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2011 8:58:25 PM by Kevmo (Judicaret spectator se ipso: Let the lurker decide for himself)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 406 | View Replies | Report Abuse]
Hopefully better formatting:
The Science Behind the E-Cat Cold Fusion Reactor
Zorinaq ^ | Nov 6 2011 | Mark Bevand
Posted on Sunday, November 06, 2011 3:50:39 PM by Kevmo
The Science Behind the E-Cat Cold Fusion Reactor
I was initially very dubious when hearing about E-Cat, a cold fusion reactor supposedly invented by Andrea Rossi. The first 1 megawatt unit was reportedly sold to a secret customer two days ago. Mainstream press has mostly ignored the invention so far. However, I found out there is a surprisingly rich history of scientific research and experiments about the mechanism it employs, nickel–hydrogen fusion. Evidence proving that the device is working keeps piling up and up. This is to a point that I am now personally convinced that this is one of the greatest (accidental) discoveries in human history.
Nickel–Hydrogen Fusion Experiments
The Italian National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development (ENEA) published in 2008 a long report entitled Cold fusion - The history of research in Italy which is very broad in scope and contains a section giving a good summary of the research sparked by Francesco Piantelli’s initial discovery:
“The research in the field of nickel–hydrogen systems started from an experimental observation by F. Piantelli at the end of 1989 concerning a strange thermal effect at low temperature in a sample of nickel with hydrogen. Piantelli spoke of this effect to his friends S. Focardi and R. Habel during the SIF congress in Trento (October 1990).”
However, due to chronic lack of funding, research progressed very slowly over the following years. Eventually, experiments were performed thanks to loans and direct participation from many colleagues and friends from the University of Siena and Bologna, from INFN, ENEA, CNR of Pisa, CISE, the Navy Academy and the Municipality of Bologna. Focardi et al. first formally published their results, in 1994, in the peer-reviewed article Anomalous Heat Production in Ni-H Systems, in which they detail a system with a cell that appears to produce power of up to 50 Watts, while absorbing hydrogen as evidenced by a pressure decrease. They cautiously do not attempt to explain these strange results, but invite the scientific community to look at the results while merely concluding:
“Up to now we are not able to formulate any consistent model which comprehends the phenomenon.”
Their discovery receives some attention and, in 1996, prompts a team from the CERN to reproduce the experiment: Investigation of anomalous heat production in Ni-H systems. The CERN discovers results consistent with Focardi et al.: excess heat around the nickel bar and hydrogen absorption. However they also placed an additional temperature sensor on the container of the cell which was unable to measure any significant excess heat. They theorize that the nickel bar is merely prone to local variations of its thermal characteristics (ie. no excess heat), correlated to the phenomenon of hydrogen absorption. They concede that hydrogen absorption remains unexplained .
Focardi et al. took this feedback into account, and started measuring the temperature from outside the cell’s container while continuing their research. In 1998 they publish a subsequent article, Large excess heat production in Ni-H system, describing in great details two cells with multiple sensors, some outside the container. They show that the excess heat is indeed more subtle when measured outside the container (see Fig. 6), but it is still present:
“The existence of an exothermic effect, whose heat yield is well above that of any known chemical reaction, has been unambiguously confirmed by evaluating the thermal flux coming from the cells.”
One of the cells ran continuously for 278 days and produced an excess power of about 900 megajoule, while another ran for 319 days and produced 600 megajoule.
In Cold fusion - The history of research in Italy, the researchers add that they observed events of nuclear origins:
“During the experiments, which altogether lasted for about 15 years, many phenomena witnessing nuclear reactions inside Ni samples in H atmosphere were observed. While it was producing energy, the cell which produced 900 MJ emitted neutrons for some days [...] equal to 1000 times the neutron flux due to cosmic radiation. [...] Other events, whose existence can only be due to nuclear reactions, were observed at the end of the experiments [...] We observed in remarkable quantity Cu and Zn (with atomic number greater than Ni), F, Na, Mg, Al, Si, P, S, Cl, K, Ca, Mn, Cr, Fe (Fig. 3).”
(One nickel atom fusing with a pair of one hydrogen atom and one neutron would produce one copper atom (Cu), or zinc (Zn) if fused with two pairs. This would indeed indicate that fusion is taking place.)
Commercial Development
Unfortunately, the 2008 report Cold fusion - The history of research in Italy abruptly ends with these promising research results, and Focardi et al. appear to have stopped conducting further public research since this time. Instead, around 2008, Andrea Rossi reportedly came to Focardi with a way to catalyze (accerelate) the reaction to a point that it made it commercially viable. So he started working with Focardi with the intention of commercializing an energy reactor based on nickel–hydrogen fusion .
Rossi has a tumultuous history to say the least. More of an entrepreneur than a physicist, he was offered a permanent entry visa to the US to develop some of his unrelated ideas. Later, he spent time in prison in Italy because his company was found guilty of environmental crimes and tax fraud. He has since then returned to the US .
So there we are today, the odd couple of Focardi the physicist and Rossi the entrepreneur are collaborating on the E-Cat, but the press unfortunately focuses too much on Rossi’s tumultuous past or lack of credentials, when Focardi spent 20+ years studying the phenomenon .
It does not help that Focardi and Rossi are extremely bad at making themselves look credible. (Although this is changing slowly.) The E-Cat website is very amateur-looking, with typos on the home page (”E-Cat is a devise [sic]...”), poorly produced and unstructured videos presenting the device, and biographies written to inflate their egos (”scientists from all the world agreed that the invention of the energy catalyzer was the best invention to this date in regards to solving the energy problems of our world”, from here.) On top of that, the community demands more scientific evidence, but they have mostly ignored Focardi et al.’s 1998 paper published in Il Nuovo Cimento, as well as this one from 2010 sharing a bit more. And Rossi and Focardi now refrain from divulging too many details, to preserve their commercial advantage .
The only details that are being shared is that they enrich nickel with two useful isotopes, nickel-62 and nickel-64, reduce it to micrometer grains, process it to increase the number of surface tubercles (this increases the surface area of nickel and improve its reaction with hydrogen), and add a secret ingredient to break apart the molecular hydrogen (H2) into atomic hydrogen (H1) .
Like many scientific discoveries, the exact mechanism by which this nickel–hydrogen fusion occurs is not fully understood. Christos Stremmenos, former Greek ambassador to Italy and former physics professor at the Università di Bologna, researched nickel–hydrogen fusion before meeting Andrea Rossi, and offers a probable explanation of the theory behind it. Yeong E. Kim from Purdue University also published a paper suggesting that Bose-Einstein theory may be explain the E-Cat device.
Stremmenos became involved with Rossi and Focardi, and helped set up a company in Greece to manufacture the E-Cat on their behalf: Defkalion Green Technologies. Greece is a strategic choice as it is a (small) producer of nickel .
The very latest developments are documented in impressive details on a site maintained by Christopher Calder.
My Thoughts
Nickel and hydrogen are extremely abundant on Earth. Only an infinitesimal quantity of these materials is necessary to produce significant energy levels. Rossi states that one pound of nickel can unleash as much energy as burning approximately 1590 barrels of oil. Nickel–hydrogen fusion would effectively solve mankind’s number one problem by providing clean energy at very low cost. Rossi estimates that today’s E-Cat design can achieve $.01/kWh when mass-produced, which is about one tenth the average worldwide domestic cost of $.10/kWh. And the technology can only improve!
It is shocking that nickel–hydrogen fusion was accidentally discovered barely 20 years ago, that a breakthrough occurred 3 years ago, that it is still not well understood or studied, yet that a device exploiting it is readying for commercialization. The joke that “cold fusion has always been a few decades away” will soon be dead.. .
I am positive that this pair of guys who started in a garage are on their way to an energy revolution .
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