Posted on 07/03/2013 9:04:28 AM PDT by FreedomOutpost
Sorry, your claim is BS unless you can prove that Obama actually did give up his US citizenship, or unless you can prove that he actually was naturalized as a citizen.
If you can prove either of the above - not just claim it's true, actually PROVE it - then you have a case. Otherwise, well, I hate to put it this way, but OTHERWISE, you're just another loon.
Another false narrative Obama supporters have successfully implemented is that natural born citizenship status is held in perpetuity; i.e., once born in the United States, then you are forever eligible to be POTUS.
If natural born citizenship status is held in perpetuity, then McCain is a natural born citizen of Panama and Ted Cruz is a natural born citizen of Canada. We know this isn’t true because Obama, Hillary and many other prominent Democrat Senators voted in Senate Resolution 511 to declare McCain a natural born citizen due to the citizenship status of his parents at his birth. Consequently, it proves the Democrat leadership believes natural born citizenship status is not held in perpetuity.
Unless you somehow lose your natural born citizenship status, you are.
If you renounce your natural born US citizenship, then you aren't.
Again, whether another country considers you to be a natural born citizen of their country is irrelevant. Contrary to the armchair theorists there's no rule requiring exclusive citizenship. There can't be. If that were the case, then Iran could make all possible candidates ineligible by declaring all Americans to be citizens of Iran.
In which case, our law would give countries like Iran the power to prevent us from legally electing another President.
Our rights come from God, not government. And, God does not grant natural born citizen status forever (as you posit), but only during the citizen's lifetime.
I got as far as your using Italy claiming all the world as Italian citizens as why the FFs had divided loyalty wrong or something and couldn't go any farther/further (always get that one wrong). I just couldn't do it.
For your sake and anyone else who might be helped, I tried to. Honest, I did, but it was too much. Even for me.
Anywho...again, "Jeff", I am being totally honest with you and am going to play along with your REAL conservative persona and just offer my opinion...and that's all it is, an opinion, but it comes from a good place.
For what it's worth cred-wise, I've taken more than a few classes and grew up around a lot of crazy (technical psychiatric term) in the various families and such I grew up in, have dated my share crazy and went back for more, have some amateur OJT in several professions, even got some experience with brain trauma and all that comes with it earning the multiple concussion syndrome merit badge. (Bet my x-rays are cooler than yours, neener, neener.)
You don't have to believe me when I tell you anything, but you can believe me when I tell you to get some help.
I don't have a license to tell you anything more specifically than my opinion, but really. Do it. I know the look. Get some help.
You are on the wrong side, darksider, all I can do is shine a light. Those are your steps to walk.
If you want to walk through the logic, one by one, and ONLY one at a time, I'll do what I can for you. Obviously, I'm damaged, so go slow with me. ONE. AT. A. TIME.
Diogenes, thanks for taking the time to provide the treatise on “Alien”. Do you recall the original posting name of “Jeff Winston”? He/she was very active three or four years ago, using the same techniques and many of the same citations. I have the list of citations which were posted by someone who was an attorney working in a firm defending Guantanamo prisoners. For whatever little names mean, the name he used on Scribd was Asian. If I have saved any of the dialogs from 2009 I will send his/her name. I seem to recall that he admitted to living in Arizona or New Mexico, and may have been banned, or his controllers deemed his services unnecessary with the complete evisceration of our media and legal establishment by Obama progressives. But the pattern is too familiar, language and citations too familiar to be incidental.
His posts have been something of an aid to those of us just learning about our legal and Constitutional history because, in spite of his exasperating use of Alinsky’s ridicule, a common legal tactic, his library of obscure citations is an excellent guide through the arguments Obama’s defenders might use if a case were ever allowed to reach discovery. Virtually all of “Winston” issues have popped up during Dr. Conspiracy debates on Apuzzo’s or Donofrio’s sites, and their resolution was a lesson for which we will always owe both Apuzzo and Donofrio. (I initially wondered why Apuzzo or Donofrio would subject themselves to the antagonism which seems a common attribute of the Obama propagandists, but realized that their verbal combat was a useful tool in honing legal arguments.)
For those without the time, and few people have the time or inclination, to research every one of “Winston’s” citations and find the cute sophistry, like a historical “Where’s Waldo”, there is often a simple blatant lie, such as the citation of the statement that the Naturalization Act in the 1st Congress made the foreign born children of citizens natural born. That Act was completely rescinded in 1795, and any mention of natural born citizens erased.
The same technique was used by Obama, Leahy, Obama’s campaign chair Clare McCaskill, Clinton, and others in their second attempt to claim McCain was eligible, Senate Resolution 511 in April 2008. They needed that resolution for talking points after their bill Senate Bill 2678, the ‘‘Children of Military Families Natural Born Citizen Act’’, sponsored by Obama and McCaskill, February 2008, failed to pass (I know you know this but others may not).
The 1st Congress Act was cited in a letter from Obama’s Harvard adviser, Con Law Professor, and member of his campaign committee, Larry Tribe, who was saved from prosecution for his plagiarism in a recent book he claimed to have written by Elena Kagan, then Dean of Harvard Law. It is a cheap trick, but Tribe and Obama knew the media and legislators were already silenced because if Obama couldn’t run, neither could McCain - a quid-pro-quo.
Among other things to look for is any mention of The Venus (though he takes time to subtly undermine John Marshall), Minor v. Happersett, Wong Kim Ark, Perkins v. Elg, or a dozen other supreme court cases. He claims to have information which he never cites undermining John Bingham, the author of the 14th Amendment’s clear statement about the definition of who are natural born, only claiming that the wording was changed. Of course it was changed. There is no use whatsoever of the term “natural born citizen” in the 14th Amendment because its authors were disciplined legal scholars who understood that every word must carry eternal burden of the law upon which our immigration laws would virtually all be based. Before the 14th, there was no constitutional definition of who were citizens, probably because of the necessary battle over citizenship for slaves, which most Northern colonies recognized in their own constitutions and law. Only natural born citizens were referenced because of the importance in protecting the presidency from foreign influence, which explains the wording of Chief Justice Waite’s explanation in Minor v. Happersett. Virginia Minor was a citizen before the 14th Amendment was passed only because she was a natural born citizen, born in Missouri to citizen parents.
We could see Winston as a learning tool, except to the extent the he/she disrupts the dialog and unnecessarily angers people. That is his job. We can assume he is one of those paid to misdirect dialog, though have no way of knowing that. The administrators at FR can probably check his IP address, but there are network tools to generate any number of false and temporary IP address that were used by Robert Bauer’s wife, Anita Dunn, who ran the disinformation program that paid many Obots during the first few years of the Obama regime.
The most obvious “hidden in plain sight” clue of the real issue is that Barry told us all he is, in the language of the 14th Amendment, a “native-born citizen of the U.S.” Barry told us he is a naturalized citizen, since that is what the 14th Amendment does; it provided the foundations for our naturalization laws. Laws can naturalize citizen at birth, but not make them “natural born citizens”, which definition is found in the writings of philosophers of the enlightenment who guided our founders. Barry told us all he was born a subject of the British Commonwealth, based upon his father’s citizenship - ironically a natural born subject of England, because English legal decisions (they have no constitution) leaned toward making more people taxable and draftable, since only descendants of the royal family could be monarch,
Barry was a citizen at birth because he was born on our soil, but not a natural born citizen, since that common-law term was made positive law by Minor v. Happersett. Of course, as Leo Donofrio pointed out the Supreme Court can chose to ignore precedent, but it will moot the wisdom of at least five chief justices, of Thomas Paine and Horace Gray (Wong Kim Ark, in which a native-born Wong Kim was determined not to be natural born, but a citizen, and in which Minor v. Happersett is cited and quoted as the authority on who are natural born.
Often the “Winston”-dominated threads would deteriorate into debates between Obots, which is probably the the objective of clever disinformation. My guess is that with the growing realization by people who know nothing of the eligibility debate, false flags are important again and this discussion might persuade some of the many who know better to take on our corrupt government.
I appreciate the advice. But the only thing "wrong" with me is a stern refusal to put up with falsehood in the name of conservatism, and a refusal to just sit down, shut up and submit to the bullies when it comes to speaking the truth about our history.
So, I'm going to admit up front that I didn't try to read your first post to me, but instead started with the one I'm replying to.
I appreciate the admission.
Birthers have flooded the airwaves with literally dozens of claims and arguments.
They've used that technique to push a false meme.
And it's fairly effective. People like yourself think, "Wow. If there's all this evidence, then what they're saying must be true."
Only from the point of view of the actual truth, it's all BS.
I will say it again: Birthers have made literally dozens of arguments and claims. I don't know of a single one of them that hasn't been shown to be BS by somebody.
They think that if they throw entire truckloads of BS, some of it will "stick."
GBA, you can't know the truth unless you sort through the details and test them to see who is telling the truth and who isn't, and do so without trying to impose your own will on the results.
People like DiogenesLamp have done their best to beat the truth down, going so far as to physically threaten people like me who tell the truth.
I'm not going to be cowed by the thugs who want to promote falsehood in the name of conservatism.
Nor can I think of anything more patriotic to do on Independence Day weekend than to stick up for our Founding Fathers and our history.
That's it.
Your signature stye posts just scream INSANE.
I got barely a sentence in and I was Luke Skywalker entering the cave of darkness on Dagobah. (You have heard of Star Wars where you're from, right? I can explain that reference or just do a search). Serious issues. No kidding.
Straight up, Beast worshiping darksider, you are on the wrong side.
The wrong side of the argument.
The wrong side of history.
The wrong side of sanity.
And, if you put all of this matrix's illusions aside, the wrong side of God Almighty.
That's what this test is all about and you're headed for an epic fail.
Oh well, enjoy Purgatory/Hades...at least it's better than the next stop.
Do say a prayer for Lieutenant Quarles Harris Jr., won't you?
"Lucie" won't like it, but there may yet still be some good in you and that would help your cause.
The reasons your side did that really aren't worth the price.
(Don't believe me, just do your own research!!! No do-overs with this)
Okay, now you’re showing signs of unraveling.
As well as the typical birther meltdown.
You don’t have the facts, can’t even argue the facts, so you grab the last desperate resort: Attack the messenger, and try to paint me as things other than what I am.
Which is simply: A defender of the truth, and of conservative values.
Have a good day.
I'd be very surprised if they were not the same person or in the same...what? Pod? Group? Klan? or whatever because of how similar they feel character-wise, and like you point out, using more or less the same material and technique.
An evolution of sorts, like a bad character actor evolving over many seasons or characters, but you still see the actor more than the part.
I used to get pissed, knowing what they're doing and have done, but now that my view of the board is better, I truly feel sorry for that one.
Oh my, Jeff. What happened to you, you poor child? You poor, poor, damaged child.
You have truly come to the right "Help Center" at the Mall, Jeff.
People here know how to help you find what you need and can point you in the right (pun for free) direction.
Did you do like I asked?
Did you say a prayer for Lieutenant Quarles Harris Jr., the man your side likely killed to protect what YOU are here trying to protect?
Put the crazy glue down and listen to what you need to hear.
Say that prayer for Quarles and ask for forgiveness. He didn't deserve that and you know it
It really isn't too late.
Remember how the prodigal son was welcomed? There's your promise, Jeff, from the Son Himself.
That's YOURS for the asking. Just Do It! Before it's too late.
Facts, GBA.
History.
You have neither.
And still you promote bullsh*t.
Thanks for showing what you are.
Thank you for playing.
“””I will admit that my hostility to birthers has grown over time.””””
Let me ask you one question and please if possible for you, answer with one word just yes or no..... Based on your answer I will have a follow-up question.
Do you Jeff Winston believe that the document represented as Obama’s Long form Birth Certificate posted on the official White House website is a copy of of the actual document?
Yes or No Please
And pardon me for thinking you were a sincere person, rather than just another birther who only cares about the truth if you find it personally to your liking.
But hey, it’s only the truth. Who really cares about all that stuff about God hating lying propaganda and all that, anyway?
Yes.
Now. WHY do I believe that?
1) We have photographs of the actual paper document. And you can see, clearly: It's a paper document, with everything right where it's supposed to be. It also has the appropriate seal on it.
2) (Relatively minor point, because I don't necessarily trust the media:) A prominent journalist handled the physical document and publicly stated that she handled the paper document and felt its raised seal.
3) As far as I can tell, every single significant claim ever made by birthers has been shown, by someone, to be bullsh*t.
4) There have been DOZENS of such claims.
5) When someone makes dozens of bullsh*t claims IN A ROW, without even ONE such claim holding up to examination, what are the odds that their next claim to "prove" the same thing is going to be anything other than bullsh*t?
Not very good.
6) Except for stuff that can be and has been explained by compression of the image, the PDF looks just like the photos of the paper document.
7) The State of Hawaii has officially testified again and again that Obama was born in Honolulu. Not just Democrats but Republicans have testified to this.
8) See point #3. It's well worth repeating.
Obviously, there are people who don't care what the actual truth is. If it "favors" our side, then it's "true."
That's nothing but lying propaganda.
As conservatives, we have the truth on our side. We don't have to and should not resort to trying to promote our interests through repeated falsehoods and lies.
I will add: Lying propaganda is completely against my values as a conservative.
So is standing to one side and letting propagandists deceive and use my fellow conservatives.
My best examples growing up were the lives and mistakes of others, so I'm pointing out where you are so that (you and) others might avoid the hole you've fallen into.
So, I gave you the biblical view and, boy howdy, you should read up on the reality of what I'm telling you. I did. The first hand accounts are out there. Read! You need to see what I see instead of the illusion you've been trapped by. Scared me!
Anyway, I walked you through my understanding, what I learned in school. I gave you logic and why. I've been through the concepts first hand in my own life, as have most people, as I alluded to with my examples.
And you show up with attitude. I ache for you. You know not what you do.
Call me what you feel you must, but please, pray for Lieutenant Quarles Harris Jr.
Use Love when you do it. "Lucie" won't, but Jesus really likes that!
You do. Quite clearly. As well you should.
It sucks being where you are.
And on display.
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