I honestly do not believe there is enough seen in this video to know what went down fully. That being said one would assume that the number of police involved could have subdued the man easier than apparently was done. Why were only the 2 officers charged?
Bottom line, I could not convict based on this video alone. First I never see the police out an out swinging for the hills, nor do I see what kinds of resistance Thomas Kelly was providing. Very tough case in my opinion if all I have to go by is this video. The only other testimony available would be the police themselves which would have to be taken with a huge grain of salt. I wish there was a video of the entire act. Absent that I think if I were sitting on that jury I would have to find the police officers not guilty as well. After all, a guilty verdict should be based upon the mantra "without a shadow of doubt" which this video does not provide me.
Flame away. I have my fire retardant suit on.
If my memory is working correctly, there were a lot of eyewitnesses watching this from a bus stop nearby.
Thanks for your comments. Always good to look at all the facts. If you remember the Trayvon case when it was first posted on FR, the early comments were mostly against “wanna-b-cop” Zimmerman who MURDERED Trayvon until more info came out.
NOT SAYING THAT WILL BE THE CASE HERE BUT...........when the article above (that is the basis for this thread) claims “the homeless, mentally ill man offered no resistance to their brutal assault.” and then you see the suspect kicking at the police and hear the officers debating the best way to cuff him because he won’t stop fighting...it might be wise to look at the info for ourselves before making a judgement.
Here are some facts that some may not be aware of.
The reason this man was homeless in the first place was because of his physical attacks against both his mother and grandfather. On one occasion he had attacked his mother, choking her for several minutes. On another occasion he attacked his grandfather, beating him him with a fireplace poker.
Keep in mind officer Ramos was responding to reports of someone possibly burglarizing cars in the parking lot that they found the suspect in. They found mail in his possession that did not belong to him. The original call to police stated “I just know him as Kelly. He’s, like, redhead. Years ago, he used to walk around with a hatchet.”
In the video Ramos is heard asking the suspect to put down his backpack over and over and over again.
He uses terms like “if you don’t mind” “You can go back to sleep” while his partner keeps telling Thomas to “sit down” over and over again before Ramos pleads “Just sit down so we can get this done and you go on about your business dude”
The suspect, arms folded , talks about the officers “forcing his hand”. What does that mean if not a threat against the officers? Was the hatchet the caller mentioned about to come out?
After a few minuted officer Ramos leans back against the patrol car as the officers continue to urge Thomas to sit down and let them search his bag.
After several minutes the suspect finally puts down the bag but Officer Ramos remains leaning back away from the suspect against the patrol car for another 30 seconds.
The suspects finally sits down on a bench and then extends his legs out and back several times, crossing his legs in a relaxed position. Apparently he was either confused or being a smart ass about what “put you feet out in front of you and put your hands on your knees” meant. After this happens several times-Ramos partner motions to him, touching his belt where Ramos then pulls out rubber gloves. The suspect continues to lean back on the bench with his legs extended and crossed in a relaxed position as Officer Ramos keeps telling him to put his “feet in front of you”.
HERE IS WHERE THINGS SEEM TO ESCALATE:
At 9:56 of the linked video’s audio (see below on how to properly sync up with audio) Officer Ramos says something along the lines of
RAMOS: “Im done f-ing with you anymore dude, I tried to be nice... put your feet out in front of you”
put your feet out in front of you
feet out in front of you
Thomas: laughs
RAMOS:put your hands on your f-ing knees
put your feet out in front of you
Thomas: Which one is it dude?
RAMOS: both
Thomas:I can’t do both
RAMOS:gonna have to-learn real quick
RAMOS:put your hands on your your knees
RAMOS: See my fists?
Thomas:Yeah-what about em
RAMOS: they’re getting ready to F-— you up...
Thomas: start punching dude
RAMOS: ...If you don’t F-ing stop this
Thomas: This sucks
RAMOS: Yeah...(pause) put your f-ing hands on your knees
Thomas: Well hey-Im sick of playing games-which one is it?
Ramos: I wasn’t playing games
Ramos: put your f-g hands on your knees
Thomas: Would you just f-ing
Ramos: put your hands on your knees
Thomas: It is f-ing
Ramos partner: get on the ground now! get on the ground! get on the ground!
At this point Thomas has pulled away from the officers and begun to flee to the other side of the street as the officers have pulled out their batons and give chase.
Ramos tackles Thomas the the struggle begins.
A big problem in all this is the mistimed audio. Its off by approximately 5 minutes and 19 seconds. You see him get struck and cry for help and for his dad when, if you sinc up the audio and video, this actually happens after he was struck and he is laying on the ground getting cuffed. Again, if you sync it up, he first complains of not being able to breath before officer Cicinelli even arrives on the scene and before he is even flat on the ground. It was when he refused to go down, was on hands and knees and Ramos kneed him twice. In the mistimed video, Ramos is shown kneeing him while the audio plays him crying “Daddy daddy” which does create a horrible impression.
When officer Cicinelli arrived on the scene, responding to a request for assistance (code 3) from another officer, he found Thomas on the ground struggling with Ramos and other officers.
As a rookie, Cicinelli experienced first hand how dangerous being a cop could be. Just 3 weeks out of the academy he approached a suspect and was shot in the face causing him to lose his eye. As he was on the ground the suspect continued to shoot him in the arms, legs and stomach until the gun was empty. Its sick to see people (not on FR) say he looks “evil” when his looks are due to a glass eye and scars suffered serving us.
Ramos and Cicinelli were found not guilty on all counts- leading the district attorney’s office to drop the case against Officer Wolfe.
“I have no reason to believe it was not a fair jury and… frankly, it does not make sense to me to continue to pursue the additional officer who’s out there whose conduct was not as reprehensible as Manuel Ramos’ conduct,” Rackauckas said at a news conference following the verdicts.
Before you flame me-please re-watch the video and sync it up for yourself. They did it for the jury, do it for yourself. Open the video in two screens and pause one at 10:00 turning off the audio(the one you are watching) and the second one (to use for audio) set at 4:42. Hit play on both to see and hear (correctly) what the jury viewed.