Posted on 10/08/2014 7:18:38 AM PDT by walford
[Note that the author is a bigot, but intelligent and articulate. My response below.]
Why Not Just Identify Yourself and Avoid Possible Death?
Lisa Mahone and her boyfriend Jamal Jones were driving on Sept. 24 in Hammond, Indiana, with Mahone’s two kids in the back seat when Mahone was stopped and ticketed for driving without wearing a seat belt. The stop was caught on cellphone camera by Mahone’s 14-year-old son.
“Thank goodness Joseph took the video, because the video stands for itself that these officers engaged in excessive force,” attorney Dana Kurtz said in a news conference with the couple Tuesday. In the video, officers ask Jones, who was in the passenger seat, to show his ID. However, he did not have his license on him. Officers then appear to draw guns and order him out of the car, prompting Mahone to call 911. The video shows police shattering the passenger window and using a stun-gun on Jones. Lawyers say the two children suffered minor cuts from flying glass. The lawsuit alleges excessive force, false arrest and battery.
In a statement earlier Tuesday, Hammond police said, “Police officers who make legal traffic stops are allowed to ask passengers inside of a stopped vehicle for identification and to request that they exit a stopped vehicle for the officer’s safety without a requirement of reasonable suspicion. When the passenger displayed movements inside of the stopped vehicle that included placing his hand in places where the officer could not see, officers’ concerns for their safety were heightened.” Mahone said since being pulled over, “I’m really in a state of shock.”
It seems like more and more people are refusing to comply with the pigs, creating a more violent scenario for themselves. We know they hate and fear us, so if a pig is violating your rights by all due respect, film him. Film him, but comply with the request and then use that footage to sue the hell out of him for violating your Civil Rights. But brothers, please please stop challenging them as if they will not shoot to kill us….THEY DO SHOOT TO KILL US. We need to stop making ourselves easy targets and victims. Why the hell did they all not have on a seatbelt? You are breaking the law by not having it on in turn you were stopped. I am in no way excusing the actions of the pigs, but I am saying lets be logical, it could have all been avoided. Say what you will, but if you have your family in the car with you, that is not the time to act like a martyr. This behavior and mentality scares me.
Police do not need probable cause to demand ID and if you are told to get out of the car and instead you remain in the vehicle and start reaching around for stuff, you are going to make somebody with a gun and a badge nervous. Review Chris Rock's "How not to get your @ss kicked by the police."
Many people apparently do not understand that LEOs have certain powers that regular civilians do not. When they give you an order, it is a lawful order and you are obligated to comply unless it is to do something that is clearly against the law.
Asking "why" implies that a lawful order is negotiable. It is not. You do what you're told; the police are not obligated to offer an explanation. If you do not obey a lawful order and demand an explanation instead, expect to be forced.
Be smart and stay alive.
Only a police officer has the legal authority to stop you when you are violating a traffic law, demand ID and initiate physical force for non-compliance. Citizens cannot do that to each other; only if life and limb are threatened can a citizen legally initiate physical force.
It is not optional for citizens to comply with lawful orders by the police. You are not asserting your "rights" by refusing to provide ID when demanded by a sworn officer. You are in fact in violation of the law when not cooperating -- and subject to physical force. And typically when people refuse to provide ID or claim they don't have one, officers can reasonably surmise that the reason is the subject has a warrant and/or something to hide. That, and rummaging around in a bag rather than getting out of the vehicle when ordered, is going to make a cop bust the window and tase you -- anywhere in the world.
Try to put away your personal biases, give the officer the benefit of the doubt and do your best to imagine the officer's perspective when you are being contacted by a LEO. Don't do and say things that would reasonably make them suspicious and escalate a minor traffic stop into something worse. A tiny bit of empathy might spare you being tased, cuffed and/or thrown to the ground.
The video that is being broadcast picks up when the officer is standing on the passengers side saying, "so you will not step out of the vehicle?" Then you can see the passenger bend his head down away from the cop. [You can't see very well, but that is likely when he was rummaging through a bag rather than complying with the order to open the door and get out.] Then the officer breaks the glass and tases the passenger.
We are not seeing the very beginning. Instead, the driver in the interview characterizes the initial contact as the officer was in a "bad mood from the start" rather than describing what was actually said and done prior to the start of the video. That makes me suspicious.
Given that the initial contact was about a seatbelt violation, and given that the occupants of the vehicle already were apparently disposed to think that lawful orders by LEOs are optional, IMO she was probably not cooperative and gave attitude to the cop when he initially approached her side of the car. If she did that, that was an unwise move that precipitated an unnecessary escalation.
I'll bet that she or the passenger were the ones who talked first. That part was not shown in the video. Neither she nor the passenger had their windows down when the video started. That alone indicates lack of cooperation.
Also, people who have violated the law will sometimes feign outrage with the hopes of disincentivizing the cop from proceeding further. [In some cases a true sociopath will become genuinely outraged when faced with limitations/consequences because they don't think they should be subject to rules that apply to everyone else.] In reality, becoming inordinately emotional about something minor like a seatbelt violation will make the officer suspicious.
Typically in a traffic stop, the officer will not even be on the passengers side of the vehicle. The fact that the video starts with the officer there indicates that the passenger gave the cop [through word and deed] a reason to move from the driver's to the passenger's side. I seriously doubt that the cop would have been there if the passenger kept his hands in plain view and his mouth shut.
If you want to avoid trouble with the police during a traffic stop -- and keep the encounter brief -- speak only when spoken to, keep your answers as short as possible, do what you're told promptly [don't give the impression that you are stalling] and keep your emotions to yourself.
If I had any trust in the cops desire to enforce the law against criminals, and if their only reason for being weren’t jacking up innocent civilians attempting to legally go about their day, then I would agree with you.
Sadly, my experience in 52 years is that the cops are revenuers for the welfare state, and the most well armed gang on the street.
They can take the next 52 years to change my mind by changing their behavior.
The officers told him to get out of the car. Too effing bad for him.
“If you want to avoid trouble with the police during a traffic stop — and keep the encounter brief — speak only when spoken to, keep your answers as short as possible, do what you’re told promptly [don’t give the impression that you are stalling] and keep your emotions to yourself.”
Good advice. Also, as you said earlier, keep your hands visible. Furthermore, don’t make any sudden movements. There was a poor chap shot in the South the other day who had exited his car in a gas station when a police officer asked for his license. He turned and reached into his car to retrieve his license (in compliance) when the cop drew and shot him. It seems prudent to explain to the officer what your are going to do next in order to comply with his requests/orders.
Remember when we had a Bill Of Rights in the USA?
Remember when one of those was the 4th Amendment?
I don’t know why the White chick is saying she’s a Black chick...
For the life of me, I can’t understand why he was asked to exit the vehicle. After all, SHE was the one being ticketed. He had no part in the transaction. Yet, the cops decided he had to comply with their orders. Looks like he has grounds for a law suit. Of course, I am basing my statements on what was shown from the video. What persuaded the cops to act the way they did?
For the life of me, I can’t understand why he was asked to exit the vehicle. After all, SHE was the one being ticketed. He had no part in the transaction. Yet, the cops decided he had to comply with their orders. Looks like he has grounds for a law suit. Of course, I am basing my statements on what was shown from the video. What persuaded the cops to act the way they did?
And when the officer requests your papers, comply!
"Papiere bitte!"
Here in MO a passenger would not have to show ID.
Some states do require a person to produce ID on the demand of a police officer - others don’t.
In America people are not required to carry ID - unless they are driving a car that requires a license.
But yeah, here in America it’s best to obey the Police otherwise they’ll give you a beat down while screaming for all to hear - “Stop resisting, Stop resisting” - and then go after any private citizen who filmed it telling them it’s illegal to film police.
PINAC
Cops need to be required to carry malfeasance insurance and be individually sued for abuse of authority.
The insurance actuaries can then weed out the bad ones by making it too expensive for them to continue in that line of work.
“If I had any trust in the cops desire to enforce the law against criminals, and if their only reason for being weren’t jacking up innocent civilians attempting to legally go about their day, then I would agree with you.”
Arguing with the cops, lecturing them about your rights, failing to comply with lawful orders, etc. are not responses that are in your ultimate best interest.
What’s the problem? The guy got out of the car.
;-)
Tommy Sotomayor is indeed intelligent and articulate. Salute, Mr Sotomayor.
“There was a poor chap shot in the South the other day who had exited his car in a gas station when a police officer asked for his license. He turned and reached into his car to retrieve his license (in compliance) when the cop drew and shot him. It seems prudent to explain to the officer what your are going to do next in order to comply with his requests/orders.”
In 20/20 hindsight, he should have kept facing the officer, told him exactly where his ID was and awaited instructions. Being “right” is not going to save you from being plugged by an officer if you do something that could be reasonably taken as threatening.
Yours was a good post, with a lot of practical advice.
However, doing something that is less-than-smart should not be a capital offense.
I don’t believe there is a legal requirement to carry an ID. Papers, please??
“For the life of me, I can’t understand why he was asked to exit the vehicle. After all, SHE was the one being ticketed. He had no part in the transaction. Yet, the cops decided he had to comply with their orders. Looks like he has grounds for a law suit. Of course, I am basing my statements on what was shown from the video. What persuaded the cops to act the way they did?”
I seriously doubt if the passenger kept his mouth shut and his hands in plain sight during a seatbelt violation traffic stop, the cop would have been on that side of the vehicle. He must have done or said something.
There is absolutely no way the officer’s actions can be justified in that gas station case, none.
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