Posted on 05/28/2015 10:36:17 AM PDT by Cincinatus
Bishop Hill points us to this video of the Tesla Supercharging station at the Harris Ranch exit of Interstate 5 in California. He writes: “How can one resist posting a video of Tesla electric cars being recharged (so it is claimed) using a diesel generator? These people love the environment you see.”
The video shows a portable diesel generator next to the charging station and some Tesla automobiles. Watch this short video:
(Excerpt) Read more at wattsupwiththat.com ...
You are entirely welcome.
“A stationary diesel generator can be significantly more energy-efficient and pollution-reduced than than a mobile ICE.”
Keeping in mind that the pollution boogeyman is CO2, I submit that a diesel generator generating power that is then stored in a battery and later used to create kinetic motion is by definition less energy efficient and more pollution producing than an on board engine that directly converts the diesel to kinetic motion.
“Still a marked improvement over what most people are driving. (Fair disclosure: I drive a LEAF.)”
Lets look at that LEAF:
They seem to get 5.4 miles per kwh....at 900 g/kwh for coal power generation, that works out to 0.37 lb co2 per mile.
That can be converted to a gas mileage equivalent. E10 is what I am forced to buy, and it makes 17.68 lb co2 per gallon. A little back calculating, and 48 mpg yields the carbon equivalent of your LEAF. There are at least a dozen cars on the US market that get 40 mpg. So, in the compact car sector, the LEAF is 20% less carbon emitting...measurable, but maybe not soapbox worthy....and here is the real question: does that 20% distinction justify the gubmint interference into the market, with its subsidy?
And that subsidy has kept automakers chasing electric technology while ignoring others. CNG cars are 20-30% less carbon emitting than gas...meaning they are exactly on par with the LEAF as far as CO2 is concerned. And, the real pollutants released by burning CNG are downright pristine, when compared to a coal power plant. And a CNG car probably even beats out a LEAF that is charged by a NG power plant, since there are no storage and transmission losses. CNG is a very promising technology...being overlook because of gubmint interference (well not really overlooked, the truck building and buying sector is unaffected by the EV subsidy since it is rare that an end consumer owns a big rig - and not surprisingly they are converting to CNG, and not electricity).
One more thing: Around 27% of our population is made up of absolute idiots. I derive that number from any number of surveys about ridiculous topics. Invariably, 27% of people polled believe 9-11 was an inside job, the moon landing was faked, etc. Trust me, these people, comprising a quarter of our population, absolutely believe that a LEAF or TESLA produces zero emissions.
A gas powered car converts fuel to motion more efficiently than a Tesla. There is a loss at every stage of electric propulsion.
Interesting CO2 calculations. Thanks.
Yeah, when I crunch the numbers hard the LEAF is an improvement, but not (as you put it) soapbox worthy.
Can’t ignore other emissions though (CO, other gasses, particulates).
Some day I’ll recharge it via my propane generator, just on principle. Only thing stopping me is the sheer noise going on for up to 20 hours.
How about a modest proposal: develop an automotive technology that runs on absolute idiots?
There’s a loss at every stage of gasoline propulsion too.
There’s a reason cabin heaters are deliberately added to EVs, vs a given for ICEs.
BTW: electrics have fantastic acceleration at low speeds.
Actually, I’m not sure whether the “emission free” electric car idea is an example of leftist stupidity or of urbanite stupidity. They are not identical. There are some ideas that are good in a densely populated urban environment and stupid everywhere else. Generic left-wing stupidity is a bad idea everywhere because it represents a revolt against human nature and the laws of economics. Urbanite stupidity consists in taking a good idea for cities and fancying that it is a good idea everywhere. Electric cars do not create emissions where they are driven, thus in an urban environment they have health benefits in comparison to internal combustion powered vehicles. I’m inclined to think this is urbanite idiocy, rather than leftist idiocy.
“How about a modest proposal: develop an automotive technology that runs on absolute idiots?”
I’ve got ideas running in my head...treadmills at the welfare office connected to a generator...
You won’t generate any electricity but I bet the Gibsmedat applications would suddenly decrease.
“The ideal vehicle in many ways, is one driven by electric batteries which can be plugged in overnight to recharge, and recharged while on the road by a small displacement gas or diesel motor.”
What you have just described is the Volt...a car uncharacteristically heavy for its size, average gas mileage, and limited electric only range. I think its the exact wrong way to go - can’t have both a long range battery and gas engine on a machine where weight counts.
As much as I dislike the snooty factor of the original Prius owners, I have to admit that they have the right technology - Primary power from gas, but waste energy is stored as electric energy...in a much smaller battery. The 2015 Prius gets 50 mpg...better than the LEAF (per my post 42), which emits co2 at a rate equivalent to a mpg car.
And, it eclipses the Volt, which is advertised at 37 mpg although no consumer testing group has ever achieved that. But accepting the 37 mpg as fact, its mileage doesn’t come close to a Prius. And lets look at the Volt under electric power: 11 kwh to go 38 miles, or 3.5 miles per kwh. Using the methodology I used in post 42, that’s 0.57 lb co2 per mile, and (as far as carbon emissions are concerned), the equivalent of a gas car getting 31 mpg. IOW, the Volt has a better ‘carbon footprint’ in gas mode than it does in electric, and its gas mode is still 24% behind the Prius in efficiency.
For this, and many other reasons, the allure of an electric car, with a ‘backup generator’, should be resisted. Either go all electric or all gas.
What is “best” depends on the buyer’s preferences. I simply stated my current preference.
You cite Volt, which is essentially the same technology for Fisker, Ford c-max plug in, Prius Plug in, BMW i3 and i8, coming Volvo XC90 T8, coming Audi Q7 plug in, and many more.
In other words combining short range battery capable of plug in recharging, plus gas/diesel engine as well.
In the case of BMWi3 you can buy it with, or without the small displacement gasoline engine.
My point is there is no single best solution, since applications vary. Certain commercial fleets are going to propane, others to plug in electric only.
People on sites like this tend to over simplify things, like blaming the Volt on Obama, etc. The Volt is simply GM’s version of that technology, at a time in their corporate lifetime when they have fallen from previous better times.
Prius cars are popular where I live, which elects Republicans mostly, is a middle class suburb. I know a few multi-millionaires who have one for daily use, keeping the big Mercedes for special occasions.
Why are you saying you are free? Does everything have to be political? If I am saying one day I think electric cars are going to be good, does that mean I’m some left wing disciple of Al Gore?
I’m simply talking about the future where electric cars stand a good chance of being superior to gasoline or diesel.
“You cite Volt, which is essentially the same technology for Fisker, Ford c-max plug in, Prius Plug in, BMW i3 and i8, coming Volvo XC90 T8, coming Audi Q7 plug in, and many more.”
Fisker - If its the same as the Volt, it makes my point...they are no longer in business.
C-max Plug in - More similar to a Prius than a Volt. Essentially its a Prius with a slightly larger battery (but still less than half the size of the Volt’s) that can be pre-charged.
Prius plug in - ditto
i8 - Ditto
BMW i3 - More LEAF/Tesla than Volt, but with an option to have a Volt like range extender. But in an effort to solve the Volt’s weight problem, the range extender is pathetically small, and BMW only claims 70 mph speeds as possible when using it.
The other stuff is ‘coming’ and not worth discussing
(since promises are so rarely kept in EV and hybrid car manufacturing).
Really, I do not believe the buyer’s preference changes the fact that the large battery with small ice backup is a bad idea. And it looks like the car makers agree - with the exception of the I3, they are staying away from duplicating the Volt. The push is obviously for a primary gas powerplant, supplemented by a small battery - as evidenced by the very cars you cited.
Look at the Volt vs Prius for example. 35 miles on battery and allegedly 37 mpg after that vs 50 mpg. Assuming $2.60 for gas and $0.12 (a low end number) for a kwh, the breakover is 43 miles. At that point, both cars will have cost $2.24 to operate. Go further, and the Prius is cheaper to operate. So why buy a Volt or similar car, put up with its heavy weight, lousy heater, missing half of the back seat (to make room for the batteries)...when the average round trip to work and back is 48 miles? And the LEAF of course is even cheaper to operate, if range isn’t a concern - if you did travel exactly 48 miles a day on workdays, the LEAF would save $360/year over the Volt.
Finally, you brought up Preferences. Fine - but why is the government trying to supercede buyer preferences by subsidizing the lesser technology? A Prius isn’t eligible for the EV credit, nor is the C-Max. But the very flawed Volt is. Frankly, until that is corrected, I feel compelled to scream from the highest rooftop that the large batter, small ice setup is a) flawed and b) inappropriately being encouraged over better technologies.
Dude, I’m not trying to make engineering or political arguments.
I do not scoff at the choices BMW or VW Group have made, in this market segment. Same for Volvo.
Until I see evidence, the American brands are not worth much attention, so I would agree on Volt. This is a company that lost sub=-brands, while Toyota, BMW and VW added them.
GM, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Saab all gone.
BMW, adds Mini. Audi, adds entire Q line. Toyota, adds Lexus, Scion.
Fisker was unfortunate. Several of his US employees came from BMW in Ventura county, CA. The guy was primarily a body style designer, and the car was beautiful.
Check out the Volvo XC90 T8, for an example of your technology choice, by a different company, on a different concept. BTW Volvo is currently profitable.
Maybe they could power it with burning ‘cow chips’ to generate steam to make electricity...
This means you have to have sufficient mass and ground clearance to bust drifts without getting hung up or deflected into a ditch.
You have to have a vehicle with sufficient fuel load to keep you warm in subzero temperatures for the 12 or more hours it can take for help to arrive if you do get hung up or otherwise stuck, and it doesn't hurt to be able to carry enough fuel to go the distance to the next town (as far as 120 miles) and still have the reserves needed to keep from freezing to death.
Obviously, it isn't very efficient to have a summer vehicle and a winter vehicle, although many do, but there is nothing so inefficient as a vehicle which will not get you there nor keep you alive.
For those who live in places where snow is something you go visit, by all means drive what you will and enjoy.
My only concern is that eventually the same people who mandated toilets that won't wash poo down the pipe, and light bulbs full of mercury for your kitchen and nursery, will get the ingenious idea that vehicle choices should be mandated (more than they are) and create those mandates around the needs of those who live 20 degrees of latitude (or more) farther south.
YMMV
Years ago, when there were near zero charging stations, I saw an electric car (at least it had a sign on the side claiming it was electric) towing a gas powered generator.
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