After seeing another blog claim that the AK47 shot 10 MOA (or 10″ groups at 100 yards), James Reeves became fed up with the bullshit and decided to test the prevalent belief that the AK is an inaccurate combat rifle. Posted on 06/06/2017 7:37:55 AM PDT by w1n1
After seeing another blog claim that the AK47 shot 10 MOA (or 10″ groups at 100 yards), James Reeves became fed up with the bullshit and decided to test the prevalent belief that the AK is an inaccurate combat rifle.
In this episode of TFBTV, James compares an American made AR15 to a Russian and Serbian/Yugoslavian AK to answer this question (and perhaps bust this myth?) once and for all.
James uses the Yugo M70 AK and Saiga SGL21 AK shooting 124 grain Wolf ammo. Shooting the target at 100 yards downrange. The AK's did well against the AR's. Shooting accurately repetitively with the AR's is simple. See the mythbustin AK accuracy results here. Any AK owners out there?, what do you think?
“what do you think?”
That w1n1 is a blog bot?
It does a drive-by posting and all we see are the tailights.
A lot depends on the quality of the AK ammunition.
I have never in my life seen an AK do 2” 100 yard groups with steel case commie ammo, and I’ve seen a few AKs.
I don’t buy it. 4 to 6 inches is far more the norm, with 3.5 being exceptional for an AK (usually means it has a quality barrel).
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Bottom line, if it blows up yer skirt, git ya some. d;^)
I shot a 4in group with iron sights.
My SKS is about 3.5 to 4.5 MOA.
My ‘06 is for long range accurate shooting.
My AR is a good 200yd gun.
The AK is for short range combat (and very good at it).
100 yards?
Didn’t know they would let you fire an AK at the pistol range....
Army Infantryman for 6 years by MOS. Also trained as an armorer and with soviet weapons. I am of the opinion that:
A junk AK is not that uncommon, a junk AR less so. A tuned AK and a tuned AR will both often out perform most shooter’s abilities. A precision (300 yard plus) AK is difficult to find but a precision AR can be fairly easy to find.
Neither is a good starting point for a sniper rifle (600 yards plus), much having to do with the round fired and the basic mechanics of either system.
I shoot 7.62x39 with a Ruger mini-30 with iron sights and brass cased ammo it s dead on accurate. Haven’t shot any steel case stuff and probably won’t unless brass disappears.
Good response...thanks.
The basic round fired in the AK, the 7.62x39, is inherently accurate - enough so that several benchrest rounds based on it are out there.
AKs themselves can be reasonably accurate, or junk - and that depends (like any other rifle) on both initial manufacturing quality and the care (or lack thereof) given to the rifle in between receiving it new and the time that the test is done. That is speaking of shooting from a bench - i.e. the accuracy of that particular rifle, when eliminating the shooter as much as possible.
Keep in mind that the AK was designed first and foremost to be reliable, NOT to be a tack driver. Semi-auto in general is less accurate than a bolt-action rifle (all other things being equal). It was meant to hit at minute-of-body at up to 300 yards, first time and every time...and most will do that. 4 MOA shooting mass-produced, steel-cased ammo is pretty lousy compared to a well-built and well-cared for AR or M16/M4 shooting match ammo or hand-loads, BUT IT DOES THE JOB FOR WHICH IS WAS INTENDED. You can’t expect a hammer to be a good screwdriver, and neither is a good wrench or saw. All that is required is that it doe the job for which it was designed, and the AK does that, in spades.
FYI, I imagine that a 7.62x39 round made to match standards, shot from a quality boltie with a relatively tight chamber, would be quite accurate.
The one I had was Russian. It was produced on the same line as the full auto version. It had a certified match barrel and custom trigger group and could only hit a broad side of a house if I threw it.
I traded it for optics to put on my 556 swat patrol.
Untrue. If the trunnion of the rifle is pressed in straight and the barrel is pressed in with sufficient precision, typically through the use of laser levels, AKs are capable of the same level of accuracy as an AR. The plant that builds a particular rifle has everything to do with it. If your barrel is pressed into the trunnion with .0002” of runoff, for example, you’ll be looking at about 1.5”-1.75” groups at 100 all day. I build them. People buy cheap junk CE they arms and thing that quality applies to the entire AK family. I use AKs chambered in 7.62x39 almost exclusively and it’s minute of chest all day long at 350 if the builder goes the extra mile. Rifle dynamics has a model that will do 7” groups at 650 yards, which I refused to believe until I saw it myself. It’s all about building the rifle part by part on a 1:1 ratio. Anything less will result in subpat accuracy.
I will throw in my 2 cents worth. Maybe one could average all our opinions and come up with something useful. Then again maybe not.
I have owned around a dozen of the AK’s, about the same number of AR’s and SKS’s. Maybe 5 or 6 Mini-14’s and not a single mini 30.
First of all, the AR is the gold standard. Nearly all are very accurate and a lot are extremely so. Next comes the SKS which is a pretty good shooter. I hardly ever shot them over 50 yards but they would usually do an inch or so at that distance.
The AK’s seemed to me to do a little better than everyone said but still not great. I would guess maybe 2 inches at 50.
The worst of them all were the Rugers. I wished so much that they would have been more accurate as I really liked them. Unfortunately I never had one that would do better than around 3 inches at 50 yards. They all seemed to do about the same.
A well fitted out AR15 with a 20 inch medium weight 1-8 twist low-end broach-cut match barrel (Say a Wilson or a Douglas barrel) will group with M262 ammunition ~1 MOA range for ten shots @ 300 M. With a good cut-rifling heavy barrel, say a Schneider or a Krieger, it will do 10 shots around .65~.7 MOA consistently @ 300 M with better lots of M262. Both rifles with some sort of float tube.
The Army SDM rifles based on the M16A4 could keep shots in a head sized target at 550 M all day long with M262.
An average rack grade M16A2 out of the weapons pool with poorer lots of M855 will group 10 shots on the order of 15 inches at 300M. With M855A1, the same rifles will group 7.5 inches at 300 M, worst case. Average lots show 6.5 to 7 inch 10-shot groups at 300 M, though M855A1 is kind of hard on the bolts (much reduced life).
The chap who did the AK test above used the Yugo M70, which has a thicker action body and shoot better than an average AK. Same is true of the Saiga, they are known for superior accuracy using a the RPK receiver stamping, which once again is more rigid than the standard AK action body.
The average spec for an AK/AKM with the standard receiver stamping thickness was 4 shots in 15 cm (5.9 inches ) @ 100 m.
In my time of running a rifle range for competitive matches I have seen any number of skilled riflemen come up with a AK to try their hand at the NMC, and all have gone away with their tails between their legs, even on reduced range courses. Simply stated a standard AK has difficulty keeping 10 rounds in 6.5 MOA @ 100/200 yards and almost all of the rifles that showed up showed a marked tendency for the point of aim to shift as the weapon heated up. They are much poorer then M1 carbines, which really were never very good.
I note these resulted were recorded by NRA rated Experts, Masters and High Masters, folks who rally know how to shoot from position. Oddly enough these many folks have never found AK production rifles that can be depended on to hold point of aim and group 10 shots in under 2.0 MOA.
Meanwhile the Internet if full of Billy-Joe-Jim Bobs who have an accurate 1 MOA WASR AK. right......
Not denying the AK could be accurate, especially in a custom build, just pointing out what is out there in most folks hands is nothing like the armchair shooters posit.
I don’t own any AK’s but I have shot a few. I absolutely cannot use the standard AK sights - my old eyes just can’t do it. I do have a 1980’s vintage Galil AR-308 which is an AK pattern rifle that has a peep rear and post-in-a-ring front sight. No problem with that or any U.S. standard post with wings and peep rear either. That tiny U-notch AK rear sight will never work for me.
Anyone can get lucky. It appears James Reeves did.
After 24-1/2 years on active duty, I moved to a small town in western South Dakota. Spent 14 years working for a gun dealership that also sold parts and performed general repair and gunsmithing.
Numerous owners of Kalashnikov clones boasted about the accuracy of their rifles. When we asked what size groups they were getting, they (a) looked blank (as in, “What’s a group?”) or (b) changed the subject. Every time.
In the course of troubleshooting and repair, we asked many gun owners to fire a test target and bring us the results, to help us find out what was wrong, or make adjustments (for example, to newly-installed sights).
Kalashnikov owners never provided a test target. Not ever.
The virtues of Kalashnikov-style arms lie in simplicity, reliability, and durability (though the latter may not be as great as many believe). They are accurate enough for burst fire at close to medium ranges: great for mopping up enemy positions recently overrun in the armored assault. They do exactly what the designer intended, and that’s that.
They are found all over the place, not because of any particular strengths nor virtues, but because the USSR and other East Bloc nations produced them in huge numbers, then gave many away, to anyone willing to stand up and chant “We love Communism!” or “Death to America!”
Frederick303, your post is right on. I shot CMP and High Power for about 35 years, 15 of them at Camp Perry too. I’ve watch many try with SKS’s and AK’s, and as you say, they lose their consistency as they warm up, especially 200 out and more. Can’t say I remember any of them winning in their class.
Look at it this way, at the States and the Nationals, the competition is plentiful and usually well funded. The AR platform has dominated it for close to 20 years, after wrestling it from the M1A domination. Many of these competitors have the means and insistence to only compete with the tools they believe will give them the winning edge, you’ll have a very hard time finding any AK’s or SKS’s on those lines. That fact alone speaks volumes.
Thank you again for your knowledgeable post.
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