Posted on 04/30/2024 8:30:11 PM PDT by bimboeruption
Free world? Have you read the news recently?
You are spouting dangerous lunacy. Mutual assured destruction is a reality and Putin can do it as well as we can if not better. You are way way way way out of your depth here.
They just gave up on any negotiated way out of this war.
Really? I can't even find where Ukraine was even ever offered potential NATO membership FORMALLY by being FORMALLY designated by NATO as a NATO Aspirant.
There may have been back room conversations or under the table promises by members of NATO and UKRAINE discussing the potential, but nothing formal that I'm aware of.
Ukraine ping
Andy Jackson: [You are spouting dangerous lunacy. Mutual assured destruction is a reality and Putin can do it as well as we can if not better. You are way way way way out of your depth here.]
The paradox of “mutual assured destruction” is there is no such thing. The first mover advantage means the country that completes an all-out nuclear strike without its adversary being able to reply in kind wins. So the idea of a limited nuclear war is misguided. A single nuke quickly leads to an all-out exchange.
Like you, Putin is not an escapee from a lunatic asylum. He understands that launching a nuke runs the risk of physical extinction not just for the Russian population, but him and his family.
You may saber rattle on behalf of Russia, but if your friends and family stood to be massacred in retaliation, you wouldn’t launch a nuclear first strike either. Same reason your homicidal instincts are kept in check on a day-to-day basis - fear of consequences. And for you, the consequences are merely personal. Whereas Putin has to worry about the physical extermination of the Russian population.
[You are spouting dangerous lunacy. Mutual assured destruction is a reality and Putin can do it as well as we can if not better. You are way way way way out of your depth here.]
A Russia completely overrun can come back, maybe even take over the lower 48. A Russia killed to the last, because its leaders used nukes against a peer nuclear power, will never again be anything, except a depopulated province of the Islamized Mongols in the neighboring Stans.
Russian first use nuclear threats are empty ones not because the leaders are nice guys but because at minimum the Friends and Family nuclear targeting plan will take care of anyone remotely associated with them, permanently. Jimmy Carter was a mega dove, but even in his time, retaliatory nuclear targeting emphasized the elimination of ethnic Russians by default, an objective Zbig, Carter’s NSA, made sure to emphasize.
If you love Russia and hate Ukraine, nothing but the destruction of Ukraine and its incorporation into the Russian empire will make you happy. For others indifferent between the two, there is no possibility of Russia using nukes. It did not when it lost half its territory with the collapse of the original Russian empire in the 90s. Why would it do so over a loss in Ukraine that’s not even 10% of that earlier loss, that it did not even own at the beginning of the invasion?
Especially when a nuclear first strike would mean the end of Russia for the rest of time? Russia can come back even from foreign occupation. It will never come back from a pile of ashes. To put this in terms you can understand, Russia will not use nukes for the same reason not even the biggest Ukraine-hating Russophile has tried to take out his Congressman for his Ukraine vote. His fear of the personal consequences keeps his weapon holstered.
Why this obsession on the part of the West with Ukraine?
Its been ongoing for over 10 years at this point. Ukraine is not vital or essential to Western Europe’s or to America’s national security and is not a treaty ally. And spare me the “(insert name here) is Hitler and if we don’t stop him here he’ll be at the English Channel in no time!” line of crap that is trotted out anytime the Deep State decides to go to war with someone.
Ukraine ping
flt-bird: [Why this obsession on the part of the West with Ukraine?]
Russia is today 3x the Ottoman empire at its peak. Turkey is much diminished from its glory days. Even so, if it attempted to overrun its neighbors, the US and its allies would supply the targets of Turkish ambitions.
Russia has been a threat to Europe for literally centuries. And for centuries, Great Powers stood in the way. Thanks to WW2 and the dismantling of the European empires, the US is the only remaining Great Power in Europe. We don’t need Russia adding 40m people to its population. We’re interested for the same reason we got involved when Germany invaded Russia’s massacre-happy regime, not because we like the people being invaded but because we fear what the acquisition of the additional material and human resources will do for the conqueror’s ability to move beyond that conquest. Land grabs are like M&M’s - you can’t have just one.
Stopped at “when Russia moved to annex Georgia”.
No they didn’t. The conflict was over South Ossetia. Georgia attacked it first.
Excellent.
Ukraine ping
flt bird: [Stopped at “when Russia moved to annex Georgia”.
No they didn’t. The conflict was over South Ossetia. Georgia attacked it first.]
Thanks ZF!
Ukraine ping
flt bird: [Stopped at “when Russia moved to annex Georgia”.
No they didn’t. The conflict was over South Ossetia. Georgia attacked it first.]
Neither is there a WW1, a WW2, a Korean War, a Vietnam War, a Gulf War 1, or a Gulf War 2.
Again, no they weren't. Georgia attacked the ethnic Russian minority in South Ossetia very much against Washington's advice. It was a really dumb move and the Russians were waiting for them. Not surprisingly the Georgians got spanked good and hard and learned not to do it again. Putin never had any intention of taking over Georgia. The intent was to teach them a lesson - don't poke the bear - which he entirely succeeded in doing.
Not to mention the prevailing winds will take much of the fallout back to Russia, or mention that he is nuking the very territory he seeks to conquer.
Ukraine ping
flt bird: [Again, no they weren’t. Georgia attacked the ethnic Russian minority in South Ossetia very much against Washington’s advice. It was a really dumb move and the Russians were waiting for them. Not surprisingly the Georgians got spanked good and hard and learned not to do it again. Putin never had any intention of taking over Georgia. The intent was to teach them a lesson - don’t poke the bear - which he entirely succeeded in doing.]
You are an idiot. Read Tom Schelling before you start talking about how deterrence works. We have no vital intersts at stake. Trying to dupe Russia out of access to its Black Sea ports, which is what we tried in Crimea, posed a real threat to Russia’s vital national interests, you know, like say China blockading all of our west coast ports. You are an utter fool spouting dangerous nonsense. You are way out of your depth.
Uh huh. And everybody we don’t like is Hitler. Its always the 1930s all over again. We must go around the world fighting every battle regardless of the cost in blood and treasure to our people or......the Nazis win.
Right. :rolleyes:
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